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Is this a non-SIP no-brainer?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by guermantes, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. guermantes

    guermantes Emperor wannabe

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    Hi,
    Until recently I had missed that settling on plains hills would give my capital +2 :hammers:. So when I rolled a pretty good start in this game (Prince level) I figured I would SIP to try it out to have a few extra hammers in the early game. Three workboats in the time of one is pretty tempting.

    However, when I moved my warrior to have a look at why the game proposed to settle one tile SW on the hut, I saw all those coast tiles and realized that maybe the extra :commerce: from the sea is more important being Financial and all. With an academy and Bureaucracy I could research pretty fast.

    Is this a no brainer? Is the long-time research rate much more valuable than the short early-game hammers?

    Where would you settle?

     
  2. Jet

    Jet No, no, please. Please.

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    It's actually a no-brainer SIP. The extra hammer on turn 1 is better. Coast is not that great for a capital even if you're Financial, plus moving loses a lake, plus if you really want to work coast tiles you have plenty of them even with SIP.

    The only thing about moving is that it might let you put a work boat on the third crabs earlier, but that's not a big deal and it's not even certain at this point that you can't just send a work boat around to the south.
     
  3. guermantes

    guermantes Emperor wannabe

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    Then why does the game suggest to settle on the hut?
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It doesn't make sense that you'd even consider moving from SIP with this start lol. Working non-seafood coast would be awful considering you can easily work actual food tiles until pop 4 and get capped at pop 5 (will probably want production/food, not commerce this early especially since you have plent of commerce).

    Moving costs you a turn, costs you hammers, and does virtually nothing for you in the first 50-100+ turns of the game.

    The AI is excessively stupid. It's better not to listen to it or play like it.
     
  5. guermantes

    guermantes Emperor wannabe

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    Well, SIP it is then. Thanks a lot!
     
  6. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    My suggestion to most people is to turn off the blue circles as well as Sid's tips. Ignoring both will help your game.
     
  7. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Sid is an evil genie trying to input scam tips.
     
  8. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    My favorite Sid tip was when I set a city to build Wealth and Sid's tip suggested building a Market because the city was producing so much gold.

    Morbo says, "BUILDING WEALTH DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY! GOOD NIGHT!"
     
  9. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    In fact, I think I understand now how some AI priorities work.
    First, making wealth, in terms of worth, is considered very low...lower than hammers values and even even more than food. vranasm was raging on the fact that the citizen governor did not take good hammer tiles when building wealth...well it has to do with the fact of any hammers processing into "commerce" is valued much lower.
    So likely goes for markets being favored than wealth.
     
  10. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @OP

    SIP seems like no brainer here


    I think I can understand the emphasis of market when building wealth since in Vanilla the building wealth was boosted by gold buildings (aka market, grocer, bank).
    It can just mean that no one bothered to update AI to new rules in BTS...

    (which will just add some steam to rages from TMIT about the lazy coding of AI in CIV ;-))
     
  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Yes, that's how it's coded, but it doesn't change the reality that coding it that way is stupid. I pointed out the same thing as vranasm to BBAI staff years ago, and they told me the same thing.

    I don't care which rule set you are using vanilla or bts, the governor choosing a 2 yield (2 :food:) unimproved tile over a 1:food: 3:hammers: 1 :commerce: mine just because one is building wealth is inexcusably idiotic. That code is so far beyond stupid that they shouldn't have even bothered with making a special governor reaction to building wealth/research at all. They'd have literally done better, in BOTH vanilla AND BTS, if they simply used the base governor emphasize code while building wealth. They actually went out of their way to put this trash into the game, and it's so pathetic it's unusable.

    I've literally had to disable the governor when building wealth because it pulls workers off of mines and onto unimproved grassland (which would grow the city into unhappiness, too!), when if they didn't have special code for it, I wouldn't have had to do so. That's pathetically sad.

    Know what's more amusing though? FAILaxis actually made civ V governor worse :lol:. I'm not sure if it's still true, but for over a year in civ V, if you emphasized hammers, the governor would actually swap tiles around AFTER hitting end turn and could STARVE the city down a population between turns :rolleyes:.
     
  12. guermantes

    guermantes Emperor wannabe

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    Hi again,

    I figured since I was so off on the original question (although my first instinct was correct) I would ask about the first build/tech order so that I get off to a desirable start. Learn from your peers, I say!

    I got a scout from the hut, BTW.

    1) Am planning to go AH (pigs = 6:food: before crab) > mining (fire up a mine after the pigs) > wheel > pottery. How does that sound?

    2) Am thinking of going worker (same number of turns as AH) > warrior (to grow before settler) > settler. Any thoughts, thereupon?

    3) With those grassland pigs, all those crabs are maybe only really worth exploiting once I start whipping. Right?

    Any input will be greatly appreciated.
    /g
     
  13. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I would go Mining ---> BW while building a Work Boat first. At size two, stagnate growth to finish the WB ASAP. Then either start on a second WB or build a Worker (the Worker should be timed to complete with Bronze Working, or maybe one turn before).

    The Pig tile is a much better tile than the Crabs, but after you improve it... then what? If you tech AH and build a Worker first, your Worker will soon have nothing left to do.

    With BW you can chop out more WBs, Settlers, Workers, Warriors, and so on.
     
  14. Nials

    Nials Prince

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    Agreed on techs, but why attempt to grow to size 2 while building a WB? If we work the plains forest hill, we can get 5 :hammers: per turn and finish the WB in 6 turns, then go onto a Worker.

    Maybe I'm missing something?
     
  15. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    I didn't notice the Plains Hill. Yes, I'd work this as soon as you receive a border pop (T3?).

    You can probably grow to size two from working the Crab. At size two, work the Crab and PH. When the two Crabs are improved, start on a Worker.

    Also, working two Crabs so early with a financial leader will help speed your tech.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Or grow to size 3 on a warrior or something and whip the worker. I sometimes grow to size 4 depending on what I can do with said worker. In that case I'd use whip OF into a setter.

    OP - ignore blue circles. base settling on what "you" see, not what the game thinks it sees.
     
  17. guermantes

    guermantes Emperor wannabe

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    Ouch, these are many suggestions trying to evaluate at my level. But I am thankful for all of them! :thumbsup:

    On a side note, I never quite get what people mean by whipping into something. I know it has with overflow to do, but how do I use the strategy?
     
  18. Nials

    Nials Prince

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    They simply mean that you maximize overflow from the whip on your current build and then apply that overflow into your next build. The "into" part really happens on its own, it's figuring out when to whip to maximize overflow that's the tricky part. Thankfully, the BUG mod can hugely assist you with this.
     
  19. WelshGandalf

    WelshGandalf King

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    Whipping in a nutshell....
    Each population whipped gives 30 hammers. This is increased if you have hammer bonuses, eg organized religion, forge.
    The most population you can whip in one go is half your current population rounded down.
    Any hammers created by whipping in excess of those needed to complete the current build are put into your next build.
    There are a few more nuances but this will do for now.

    Example.... let's say you have a size 4 city, and you're building an axeman, and have put 4 hammers into it last turn. As axemen cost 35 hammers, this means you need 31 hammers to complete it. If you whip now, you will lose 2 population and get 60 hammers. Note that 2 are whipped away, not 1, as you are more than 30 hammers from completion. So next turn, you will have an axeman, 2 less population and 60-31 = 29 hammers that were left over, to put into whatever you want (maybe another axeman? :D).
     
  20. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Unless you want to have fun
     

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