Is this AI cheating or what? Rigging elections...

[Sherlock]

It takes me 10 turns to rig an election.

Washington rigs an election and steals my CS.

2 turns later I bribe it back to me.

2 turns later Washington rigs another election and steals it again.

How is this even possible?

 

[Furycrab]

It takes me 10 turns to rig an election.

Washington rigs an election and steals my CS.

2 turns later I bribe it back to me.

2 turns later Washington rigs another election and steals it again.

How is this even possible?

He's not rigging, he's using Coups, not the same thing, not the same risk, it's a button on the spy screen when he's in the CS.

Thing of note: because of this, it's now kinda questionable to takeover a CS with "just" enough influence to be over the other Civ since the chance of success of a coup is based on the difference between your influence and the other civs.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

He's not rigging, he's using Coups, not the same thing, not the same risk, it's a button on the spy screen when he's in the CS.

Thing of note: because of this, it's now kinda questionable to takeover a CS with "just" enough influence to be over the other Civ since the chance of success of a coup is based on the difference between your influence and the other civs.

It is very questionable as the AI can often coup successfully when the difference is vast - and then continue counter-couping everytime the player bribes the CS back. I also think, (but haven't investigated yet) whether the constant change of allegiance resets your spies coup or election rigging timer. I think this is true for the player but not for an AI as they can coup every turn or every other turn regardless of how often you take allegiance of the CS back.

 

[Smokeybear]

It is very questionable as the AI can often coup successfully when the difference is vast - and then continue counter-couping everytime the player bribes the CS back. I also think, (but haven't investigated yet) whether the constant change of allegiance resets your spies coup or election rigging timer. I think this is true for the player but not for an AI as they can coup every turn or every other turn regardless of how often you take allegiance of the CS back.

Indeed. This is maddeningly unfair, and is what has driven me to deactivate spying in all my games now. There really needs to be a decidely longer timer on how often the AI can coup the same CS. Or, perhaps make each coup attempt within short periods of time make their chance of success fall by an additional 33%, unless they wait for a decently long number of turns before trying again. Yeah, I think I like that one. More chance for their rotten uber spies to DIE DIE DIE!

It got to the point where any game in which I drew Elizabeth as an opponent (she not only gets an extra spy, she is without a doubt the best civ in the game as using their dirtiest tricks against you, and does so with zero hesitation), she would quickly end up focusing ALL of her numerous spies solely on my CS's, and couping them over and over and over. Made me hate her even more than I already did, which had been approaching infinity even before the addition of spies to the game.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Indeed. This is maddeningly unfair, and is what has driven me to deactivate spying in all my games now. There really needs to be a decidely longer timer on how often the AI can coup the same CS.

It got to the point where any game in which I drew Elizabeth as an opponent (she not only gets an extra spy, she is without a doubt the best civ in the game as using their dirtiest tricks against you, and does so with zero hesitation), she would quickly end up focusing ALL of her numerous spies solely on my CS's, and couping them over and over and over. Made me hate her even more than I already did, which had been approaching infinity even before the addition of spies to the game.

I'm not against the espionage system in totality, but the more I play G&K the more of an impression I get that it was just slapped together. I don't think it was thought through nearly as well as religion and their just isn't a whole lot you can do with it. Also, the various quirks in the system can make it totally unenjoyable and when coupled with special cases like Austria and DM or Lizzy and extra spies, it gets obnoxious.

 

[BobDole]

AI cheating? No, but are coups broken (something that has been discussed a lot on these forums and will hopefully be fixed)? Yeah, they pretty much are.

 

[Scarpa]

Strange, I almost always block the AI coup. Of course, by the time I bother to put spies in my CS allies they are way leveled up. Still it's about 10:1 AI fail:AI coup for me, to the point I wonder why the AI bothers.

 

[Smokeybear]

Strange, I almost always block the AI coup. Of course, by the time I bother to put spies in my CS allies they are way leveled up. Still it's about 10:1 AI fail:AI coup for me, to the point I wonder why the AI bothers.

I'm sure it depends a lot on how many CS's you keep allied with, and how much gold you have available to pad their loyalty with. If you just have a small handful, and keep their loyalty padded up around 200 or higher, and keep your best leveled-up spies in them as well, yeah, you could get that kind of ratio (do spies really lower an enemy spy's coup success rate in a CS, or does that just work for protecting techs in your cities?). But if you've got quite a few of them, and can't afford to get all their influence numbers way up, then you'll see spies succeed at couping at more of a 1:5 fail/success ratio. If not worse.

I like my CS's, the more the merrier. I could see losing some to coups, as part of the experience. But losing many of them, over and over turn after turn, costing me billions from my (usually limited) treasury... no. Uh-uh. It's not even funny when some stupid little lame-arsed one-city-left civ like Elizabeth can suddenly decide to take a dislike to you for no good reason at all, and then you are losing 2 or 3 CS's to coups on every turn for infinity. Grrr....

 

[cman2010]

Yeah this is really annoying i had a game where spain keept couping a cs like every other turn.

 

[Scarpa]

That's a good point, most of the time I just have a few key allies, almost never than 4.

 

[MadDjinn]

Yes your spies will defend you allied CSs. Higher level = better defenses.

Coups don't have a timer. Rigging elections is a global timer for all CSs.

 

[Smokeybear]

Yes your spies will defend you allied CSs. Higher level = better defenses.

Coups don't have a timer. Rigging elections is a global timer for all CSs.

Thanks, MD. And coups need one too. I play epic or marathon games, where the election cycle is 45 turns. The 'coup timer' should be at least 10 or 15 turns, on that speed. More would be nice, but I'd settle. Alternatively, each following coup by the same civ on the same CS during one election cycle, lowers their potential coup success rate by 33%, if they attempt to coup the same CS again during that election cycle. So basically they would only be likely to get 2 successful coups during each election cycle, before their spy's likelihood of dying tips over. I do love dead enemy spies. And if one spy dies and they send another, the same failure percentage carries over to that spy too, so they can't just play musical spy chairs with them to jimmy the percentage.

 

[binhthuy71]

Taking the Papal Primacy belief and opening Patronage will often make you Friends with many CS. That makes allying with the handful that you need much easier. In addition, fulfilling quests can make them allies even if only for a few turns. I've been using a Faith + Culture strategy, opening with Tradition and then working Both Piety and Patronage until Freedom. It works very well for allying CS because many of the quests are for Culture or Faith.

And, yes, the coup mechanic badly needs attention.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

OMG it's THE MadDjinn!!!

So, do you have any thoughts on the current state of the espionage system? Or how that plays into the Austrian UA?

There's been a lot of debate on these subjects, I'd like an expert's opinion (and I'm not above a little brown nosing to get it, lol).

 

[hobbsyoyo]

oh well I tried

 

[Dogmouth]

Coups might work in really small maps, because you can easily deal with a handful of AI civs and anticipate where the civs will attempt to coup. On large maps coups are a complete joke. The total amount of coups goes way up, and you can no longer anticipate the location of coups due to the number of CSs and your limited number of spies. This is one place where scaling simply doesn't work because spy defense isn't changing and spy offense is changing at a dramatic pace.

I've had large maps where I get 4-5 coups a turn. Micromanaging CS relationships in this environment is extremely tedious and borderline impossible.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Coups might work in really small maps, because you can easily deal with a handful of AI civs and anticipate where the civs will attempt to coup. On large maps coups are a complete joke. The total amount of coups goes way up, and you can no longer anticipate the location of coups due to the number of CSs and your limited number of spies. This is one place where scaling simply doesn't work because spy defense isn't changing and spy offense is changing at a dramatic pace.

I've had large maps where I get 4-5 coups a turn. Micromanaging CS relationships in this environment is extremely tedious and borderline impossible.

Not to forget the fact that on a large map you can't hope to defend your techs, your CS alliances and hope to steal any intrigue or techs yourself. Not that you should be able to do all things at once, I believe in having limits that force you to prioritize. But you are stretched so thin for spying resources that doing anything worthwhile on a large map is near impossible and then the feature becomes un-fun as you find yourself on the recieving end of the majority of espionage actions.

 

[binhthuy71]

Coups might work in really small maps, because you can easily deal with a handful of AI civs and anticipate where the civs will attempt to coup. On large maps coups are a complete joke. The total amount of coups goes way up, and you can no longer anticipate the location of coups due to the number of CSs and your limited number of spies. This is one place where scaling simply doesn't work because spy defense isn't changing and spy offense is changing at a dramatic pace.

I've had large maps where I get 4-5 coups a turn. Micromanaging CS relationships in this environment is extremely tedious and borderline impossible.

On a Large map you have 9 (Or 10 if Lizzy is in the game) AI spies working against you at a time when you have one lonely spy. I don't believe that the AI stations a spy in their capitol so all of those spies are free to do mischief elsewhere. By the second round of spies the AI's have enough of them to plant one in every CS in the game, even if none of the CS have been conquered or diplo married. You, on the other hand, now have two spies.

I've had the same experience as you when playing on large maps; by the time you get to the Industrial era every turn features a string of coup notifications. I just right click them without reading because there's little that I can do about them.

 

[Udey1]

Yeah the coup system needs to ne looked at, you really just have to give up on some CS alliances (i.e. Competing with liz over a cultural CS when she is trying for a culture vic) youll just waste all your money and all your time. )

I too play large maps and would agree the map size can exasperate the problem.
Stationing special agents wont matter, and since the AI has the gold to buy their "failed coup reputation" right back, often they attempt coups as soon as the spy lands in the port- it is a logical step for them since failing doesnt have any consequences for them. A time
Limit should be introduced.

 

[MadDjinn]

oh well I tried

I'm not on the forums constantly

There's problems with coups and tech stealing. Whether that can be fixed in the right way or not remains to be seen. Rigging Elections seems appropriately balanced.