Is this game winnable?

[Ai Shizuka]

Story: I'm playing my first games at Emperor with the usual fractal/random leader/epic combo.
Rolled Charlemagne in a pretty uncomfortable position, squeezed between Hannibal and Justinian.

1010 AD, still alive and kicking, but my empire looks like this:





While my neighbors look like this.

This is Justi and the former american empire:



Hannibal and DeGaulle to the E:



Gilga and Qin to the SE:



Tech board is good. I can backfill everything with a couple trades:



And I managed to stay out of trouble, adopting Justi's religion on demand and then switched back to NSR. Hann is pleased from fair trade, so he can't declare war. Gilga is friendly from fav civic. DeGaulle and Qin may declare, but I hope they have better targets.

Gilga, DeGaulle and Hannibal are Jewish, Justi is Buddhist and Qin is Confu:



Bureau capital is doing well. I'm sending more units there to keep growing:




But I really don't know where to go from this point. Only 4 cities, so can't even build Oxford/Globe. Aachen can build units at a decent rate, Prague already takes some 4 turns to build a LBow, Vienna will be decent with Moais, Nuremberg was dedicated to Great Persons so far.


I have marble, so I'll get the Taj.

I think I can build a decent stack of maces/trebs, adopt Judaism to be safe on the E front and take a chunk of Justinian for myself, before he starts to catch up and run away. But he's HUGE. I think my power ratio with him is 0.2. Not that I have an army at all at this point, but still.

Save is attached.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmmm. This is a bit painful. Ok.

1. Your expansion was too slow, or poorly prioritized. This isn't deity, even if thessalonica and hippo were the first cities founded respectively, you could have 6 cities right now. The outlook would be a lot better if you had them.

2. Why are you NSR with pacifism?

3. You're in HR, why haven't you been using it?!

4. You're weak, darting after hannibal makes a LOT more sense than justinian right now IMO.

Edit: You did, however, take care of diplo pretty well.

Is it winnable? Possibly .

 

[Skallagrimson]

AI's REX at an insane rate on Emp+. That's one of the problems I run into.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

1 - Absolutely. Justi caught me by surprise actually, with some early cities. But at least an extra city where he has Nicomedia was possible.

2 - I used pacifism a couple times to speed up my GP. Then switched again in NSR to stay out of trouble.

3 - Too many things to do, I guess. But growing a capital like that takes big priority, so point taken.

4 - Ok, I'll try Han. A bit afraid of his jewish friends, though. Buddhism looks like the better option then, maybe with theocracy.


edit: Skalla, no kidding. Biggest difference I've noticed so far from Monarch to Emp.

 

[Phil725]

I'm not an emperor level player, but I do like peaceful victories. This looks like a perfect situation for a UN victory. You can get the entire Jewish block friendly with you by adopting their religion and running there favorite civics, which are all conveniently in different categories (HR, Free Market, Nationhood.) Just make sure you can switch them to Judaism/favorite civic through bribes or spies before the votes come up.

The opponent will probably be Justinian. It would help to create a riff between him and the others through some war or stop trading bribes. Although it may not be necessary, Justinian won't make many friends if he's in his own religion.

The main problem would be limiting Justinian. You can keep him from expanding by closing borders when he wants to war as long as he stays friendly. If your relations deteriorate though, your going to really need to build up a defensive force.

The only other thing would be to make sure the QSH doesn't get bigger.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1 - Absolutely. Justi caught me by surprise actually, with some early cities. But at least an extra city where he has Nicomedia was possible.

2 - I used pacifism a couple times to speed up my GP. Then switched again in NSR to stay out of trouble.

3 - Too many things to do, I guess. But growing a capital like that takes big priority, so point taken.

4 - Ok, I'll try Han. A bit afraid of his jewish friends, though. Buddhism looks like the better option then, maybe with theocracy.


edit: Skalla, no kidding. Biggest difference I've noticed so far from Monarch to Emp.

It depends how fast you can get cuirassers or rifles before he gets defenses vs them. Justinian might be easier, but 1) he's stronger and 2) he's not as much of a sitting duck if you bribe him vs Qin, which hannibal is.

 

[Gliese 581]

Four cities with an imperialistic leader means you have seriously underprioritized expansion in most cases.
I would squeeze in 2 more cities asap in the best production locations you can find, it doesn't matter if they heavilly overlap with your other cities, just make sure they have a decent production, first build should be library, second university. Then get oxfords in capital ASAP. West of the capital looks good, some mines + fps and lots of forests that should all be chopped to help you get the universities. Also one city to NE could use the iron and a couple of forests..food is a problem there though, consider farming over some cottages unless they're already villages there to give you more growth for that city.

Edit: I see you have a hamlet and a cottage at NE and NNE of cap that could be farmed over temporarilly. Make the Taj a second priority, with only 4 cities it will give you little, make settlers and then get Oxfords asap instead it will last you much longer. The problem is you're a bit late in doing such a thing but just maybe you can make it to infantry before a neighbour.

 

[assass1n]

why are you researching PP I think the benefits would be marginal with four cities and I would say go Mil Tradition and try running spies in your cities for EPs on Hanni and DoW him he has just 6 cities
I tried an Emp game with Zara where I had a tundra start and Pericles blocked me off from contact with the other civs his cap was exactly on that chokepoint and he settled copper two turns before me so I gave up

 

[shyuhe]

AI's REX at an insane rate on Emp+. That's one of the problems I run into.

Not to but you can do more than 4 cities on emperor with an IMP leader. You need 6 for the national wonders on a standard map and that makes a BIG difference. Even if the last 2 are crap, as long as you can whip out a theater, university, and forge, they've served their purpose. Heck you should probably make them pure farm cities if they're crap anyways and use them for drafting.

Set up Nuremburg as a Globe city. It has 3 food sources and can draft a rifle per turn. You can start drafting maces and muskets as soon as you get 6 theaters up. Just swarm Hannibal with numbers, using EP to bring down castles and walls on the hill cities. Once you absorb his land, you should have a good shot at winning. Depending on when the AI tech rifling, you may be able to take out another AI before they obsolete.

I think PP --> rifling is correct given the situation here.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not to but you can do more than 4 cities on emperor with an IMP leader. You need 6 for the national wonders on a standard map and that makes a BIG difference. Even if the last 2 are crap, as long as you can whip out a theater, university, and forge, they've served their purpose. Heck you should probably make them pure farm cities if they're crap anyways and use them for drafting.

Set up Nuremburg as a Globe city. It has 3 food sources and can draft a rifle per turn. You can start drafting maces and muskets as soon as you get 6 theaters up. Just swarm Hannibal with numbers, using EP to bring down castles and walls on the hill cities. Once you absorb his land, you should have a good shot at winning. Depending on when the AI tech rifling, you may be able to take out another AI before they obsolete.

I think PP --> rifling is correct given the situation here.

He probably can. Justinian is a super heathen, as is Qin. Nobody is going to trade with Justinian and he will tend to fall behind even at his size.

Another riskier type of move is a dogpiler on Qin after hannibal. Most of the AIs here don't declare at pleased (gilga will but he's friendly), and although Qin does but that doesn't matter if he's the target!

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Ok, thanks all for the tips. I've taken some bits from everyone to figure this out.

REX was poorly executed, I got it, no need to insist



First, I settled Augsburg NE of Aachen. Now at size 5, working 2 farms (farmed over 2 cottages, as Gliese suggested), iron, a mine and a ws.
Didn't settle a city W of Aachen, as I realized there was a decent window to get some cities from Hannibal

Completed the Taj anyway, for a couple reason:
- switch to FR
- speed up a GM in Nuremberg, for upgrading purposes
- production boost for cuirassiers

I bribed Qin vs DeGaulle twice and Hannibal vs Qin around 1100 AD.
Should have waited until I was ready to backstab, but he was teching well.

Spoiler :

Started spamming cuirassiers while researching rep parts and rifling and then upgraded everything to cavalry.
Meanwhile, Justi declared vs Gilga, Qin vs Justi and DeGaulle vs Justi.

I closed borders to Justi when I noticed his huge stack of Cataphracts, maces and trebs crossing my land and he declared war ON ME, at PLEASED.
Just reloaded, because that's some serious bs. Justi should not declare at pleased.


Declared war vs Han with 20ish cavalry and still spamming more.
Captured Hippo in the first turn and destroyed his main stack in the second.

Then, the usual magic rifles bs. He came begging for REP PARTS two turns before my DoW, and still has rifles everywhere 5-6 turns into the war.
Painful, but a mix of flanking 2 and pinch cav still did a respectable job.

Now his empire looks like this:





But he's offering peanuts for peace:



I'm inclined to capture Utica at least, to get rid of that big culture blob.

Carthage has the Jewish Shrine, but I think it will be a great military city, with some hills and a mil academy already built:



Tech board is getting out of control:



And the big dogs are still big:





Gilga and DeGaulle signed a def pact at some point, but DeGaulle declared on Qin again.

Going better, but still looking hopeless to me.

EDIT: I was researching PPress for two reasons:
- Rifles
- GS coming in 2 turns to bulb most of it

 

[Yamps]

They could declare even on Friendly if they decided to do it when not Friendly.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Yes, I know. He's always been pleased. And Justi don't attack at pleased.
I'm 100% sure he declared just to go through my empire and attack Gilga. When I reloaded and didn't close borders to him, he just went through and declared on Gilga. This proves I wasn't the target of his WHEOOHRN mode.

Should have played a couple more turns to see what he'd have done, but I had a grand total of 4 cuirassiers at that point, so reloaded right away.

But it doesn't make sense anyway. I thought leaders with 100 peaceprob at pleased NEVER declare at pleased, no matter what you do.

 

[Yamps]

So, you are saying that you cut off Justinian so he couldn't reach Gligamesh but then he changed war plans to attack you? Well, this is interesting. Perhaps if you post a save sb could explain what happened....

You weren't at war at that point with Hannibal, right? Nobody bribed Justinan, no AP resolutions, taking vassals or sth? Odd...

 

[Gliese 581]

Maybe Hannibal bribed Justinian to attack you? I haven't looked at the charts but many AIs can be bribed to attack someone they're pleased with and they consider you a juicier target if you're already engaged.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

What happened:

- Justi was in WHEOOHRN for a while, always pleased with me, so I was not his target.

- I noticed his huge stack crossing my land. Didn't know who was his target.

- Closed borders and his stack got auto-moved back in his borders.

- Next turn, he declared on me, always at pleased. I still had the fair trade bonus, "you gave us help", "you adopted our state religion".


When I reloaded and didn't close borders, he went straight to Gilga.


I'll try to replay and post a few screens.


edit: Gliese, both Hann and Justi was pleased with me, and none of them bribes or attack vs a target they are pleased with.
Totally unexpected, I have to say.

 

[Corneh]

open borders give +2, so maybe justi dropped to cautious after closing borders making you his target instead?

 

[Dirk1302]

What happened:

- Justi was in WHEOOHRN for a while, always pleased with me, so I was not his target.

- I noticed his huge stack crossing my land. Didn't know who was his target.

- Closed borders and his stack got auto-moved back in his borders.

- Next turn, he declared on me, always at pleased. I still had the fair trade bonus, "you gave us help", "you adopted our state religion".


When I reloaded and didn't close borders, he went straight to Gilga.


I'll try to replay and post a few screens.


edit: Gliese, both Hann and Justi was pleased with me, and none of them bribes or attack vs a target they are pleased with.
Totally unexpected, I have to say.

Do you have a save of the moment where he's in wheoohrn, going for gilga, you close borders and he declares on you next turn? If so i can find out in the code.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

No saves, sorry, I'm replaying it from the 1010 AD save to see if it happens again.

First time I've tried he went up to friendly when I accepted to adopt theocracy. Back to pleased when I switched out of theo, but this time when I closed my borders, he simply went back home with his stack.

Second time, he never entered wheoohrn mode again.

I'll try again later.

Corneh, not enough to drop him back to cautious. He's at +9, so in the "high" pleased range, almost friendly.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

I give up. Replayed two more times to replicate the same situation without success.

- First try: Justi simply go back home when I close borders. But he was friendly for a couple turns, so this may have altered his decision.
- Second try: Justi doesn't enter wheoohrn mode at all.
- Third try: he enters wheoohrn, starts moving his stack through my land and simply sits at his border when I close.
- Fourth try: same as second.

Maybe I missed something completely obvious the first time and can't figure what.
I'm totally puzzled.