Is Tokugawa too stupid for his own good?

[SnowlyWhite]

Aggressive, backstabbing; more or less we could say it fits the profile. However, I didn't heard about Ieyasu that he was dumb; nor isolationist for that matter, but that's another story.

Due to his crankiness and isolationism, he's always falling behind in tech badly from mid game on... he's always dead last in my games. It's like he has a tag "keeping this land for you, come and take it when you need it"...

 

[Refar]

I agree on the baseline - Toku's AI behaviour is not doing him any good. He's not trading, he will at times overexpand stifling his own research... He can be a pain if he gots to Rifling - in that case the land he kept for you will come with quite price tag.

However - he will not backstab you. He is in fact the most trusthworthy AI in the Game IF you manage to get him to like you in the first place.

 

[TheLastOne36]

^^Agreed.

You just have to be the same religion as him and he'll be happy.

 

[Diamondeye]

I am playing a game as Shaka where Toku is techleader and has a vassal. It is odd, at the very least...

 

[Roxlimn]

Toku's game is war. War early, war often. War all the time if you can help it. If you're not at war, you're consolidating and preparing for another one.

It's no surprise that the AI does badly with this leader - it generally sucks at war.

 

[madscientist]

I chalk it up to Toku's personality which is what makes the game so interesting. Very nice to have ONE leader in teh game that is an isolationist. Historical relevance? Well it is a game mind you.

Toku also needs alot of catering to. He may like you but dilikes everyone else. He will frequently ask you to cancel border wit other AIs and you get some real nasty diplo penalities if you refuse. Overall, he's generally easier to just ignore if at a distance, or attack early if adjacent.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I actually really like Toku in my games as a diplo partner. He's the only AI I consider to act normally when it comes to war. IE: He's friendly with me, annoyed with Civ-X. I ask him to DoW Civ-X he always says 'Hell yeah I'll DoW on that sucka!'. He's one of the few highly loyal leaders who'll attempt to crush mutual enemies anytime you ask. All too often I have friendly AI civs that will never DoW on civs we're both annoyed/furious with for me (even when I have no vassals mucking up the friendship). Even when we've shared religion and traded for thousands of years they still refuse like stupid wastes of trading partner space. Again Toku just wants to bring the pain to anyone who even looks funny at your alliance, and he'll NEVER backstab you. Once you're trading techs with him he's as good as gold.

 

[Sim_One]

Tokugawa once gifted me one of his cities...on his own accord. He just popped up and said, here, take this city as a gratitude for our friendship. Granted it was a city that was under heavy cultural influence from me and would've revolted sooner or later. But I have never had the AI voluntarily gift me anything when not in permanent alliance, nevermind an actual city. It definitely changed my opinion of Tokugawa. The difficulty with him is actually trying to get him to friendly status.

 

[CivMcNut]

I still remember he was the first civ I took out, playing my first game of Civ. He does seem to really fall behind in score. It seems like one of the other AIs always declares war on him. It really gets on my nerves that he won't open up and trade half the time.

I think what gets him in trouble is that limited tech trading he subscribes to. He always seems to be running behind in some aspects on tech in my games. To top it off, he seems to be one of the poor generals in the game.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

the problem with the current code is exactly what I'm experiencing again in the current game:

he doesn't ob till he's pleased, random religion spreads to him, different then everyone's else, he switches to that religion and then, since no ob, he can't be converted to anything else. So... he's even more annoyed with everyone, declares right, left and center and right now he... still researches civil service(took him 60 turns or so... a ton for immortal, even if marathon). That with the biggest landbase. He doesn't have CoL so probably maintenance just kills him. He's around 5-10 behind all the rest of us, that, again, with the biggest landbase and good land(tons of calendar cash resources, gems and all the jazz in the jungle).

He always opens strong, however I seldom see him going past samurais. Needless to say it's a matter of time till the other 2 guys on my continent(izzy and suleiman) will kick him; or try to... as I'll have to feed him techs yet again... He's judaist despite judaism being, like everything else, spanish... on obviously a buddhist continent, as we all know what izzy researches first... Heck, even my rush target(louis, who ended up his voluntary vassal) techs faster according to espionage... and he's left with 3 lousy cities in the desert that I cba to take...

P.S - and loyality(though he's loyal only at friendly, at pleased he'll backstab without a blink) wasn't either somethin' that struck me as one of ieyasu's traits

 

[SnowlyWhite]

woot... after I fed him 3 techs, he got to samurais... then I had to feed him engineering too... izzy might even take my private real estate(needless to say he felt like declaring on her with half of her power)...

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I agree on the baseline - Toku's AI behaviour is not doing him any good. He's not trading, he will at times overexpand stifling his own research... He can be a pain if he gots to Rifling - in that case the land he kept for you will come with quite price tag.

However - he will not backstab you. He is in fact the most trusthworthy AI in the Game IF you manage to get him to like you in the first place.

He can decide to attack you at pleased and can be bribed to attack civs he's pleased with. He is NOT trustworthy. He is a backstabber, like most warmongers. Very few warmongers are trustworthy, like Brennus and Boudica.

 

[Refar]

Never happened to me.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Regardless, that's how he's coded in the files that run each AI's personalities.

 

[Moxxa]

I remember that back in Warlords, if you gifted Toku a decent tech the first turn you met him, meaning the very first time his mug pops up on your screen to say "Hello", he would go to pleased and be willing to open borders / trade with you. From there on out, just raise the diplo like any other leader. He makes a great friend if you can get him to open up.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

He kind of annoys me if he spawns near me. He doesn't like trading and he's protective...very annoying. If he's anywhere but next to me though, I like him because he tends to incite wars and is almost never a threat to win the game.

 

[uppi]

Regardless, that's how he's coded in the files that run each AI's personalities.

I doubt that these values come into play very often. If he is pleased with you, you are probably his best friend and he will be too busy loathing all the others to backstab you.

And someone else bribing him to attack you would first have to accomplish the not-so-small feat of becoming his friend.

 

[moggfanatic]

That's a rhetorical question

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Toku will usually be friendly with any other warmonger that shares his religion. He'll start off pleased because of similar peaceweights and warmonger respect and itll only get higher. It's not rare for warmongers sharing religions to be at friendly with each other in the BCs. So it's not really having friends that screws him, it's the fact that he won't even trade techs with his friends.

So yeah, if he's the only warmonger and everybody else is people like Mansa, Elizabeth, Lincoln, etc. He won't have any friends.

Him getting bribed might not come into effect because most of the people he's friends with also don't tech well. Except if Toku is even farther behind than them, then he might.

There's just nothing about him that would make him a better attack dog or friend than any other warmonger.The other warmongers are easier to befriend and are just as easy to bribe and are more willing to trade if they get a tech you don't.

 

[HiroHito]

ywah its true that Toku is one stupid shogun, but hey at least his UU is cool