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Is Trump Right? or Trump’s Dumb Muslim Plan

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by abradley, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. Zkribbler

    Zkribbler Deity

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    Not one Japanese spy was interned, just a whole lot of loyal Americans.

    In Hawaii, a Japanese spy lived in the town of Aiea, and he had a perfect view of Pearl Harbor from his front porch.
     
  2. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    Conservative or other, people who try to re-write history are generally doing so to support some modern belief or narrative.

    So, if we can argue that, say, Japanese Internment was A. not that bad and B. actually necessary, it serves our modern purpose of trying to take action against Muslims.

    In that way, it's functionally similar to disenfranchising voters: If you can't win on the battlefield of ideas, then rig the game.
     
  3. Zkribbler

    Zkribbler Deity

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    On Monday, Trump called for “a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.”
     
  4. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    They were forced into concentration camps. And had most of their property confiscated. While they weren't systematically murdered, they were treated extremely harshly.
     
  5. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    I was referring to the rank and file Republicans, which apparently consists of about 30% lunatics. The other candidates are trying to maintain exactly the fiction you are supporting in this post. There ARE racists in both parties, but they only have a strong contributing voice in the running of ONE party. If Trump were not appealing to them directly and stealing them away the other Republican candidates would be using the same underhanded back channel appeals to them that Romney did. Because the Republican candidates don't just tolerate racists in their party, or ignore racists in their party, they COURT them because they DEPEND on them. The Democratic party is far too dependent on "anti-racists" to even hint at such pandering.

    This was a strategic decision the GOP made half a century ago that has long since become a burden, but they have no way out of the consequences. In the 1970s you could go out and appeal directly to bigots, much like Trump is doing now, and be effective. You'd get the bigot vote, and people who weren't bigots themselves were by and large not offended so the costs were minimal. But now most people who are not bigots themselves are in fact disgusted by them. So the GOP has backpedaled as much as they can get away with without losing the bigot vote.

    Now along comes Trump, telling the bigots to come out, front and center, and demand the open representation that the party owes them after half a century of support. Gotta love that.

    BTW, some of your post was off topic IMO, but has to be responded to.

    Spoiler :
    People aren't "advocating violence towards white cops because "a few went rogue." They are demanding reform of law enforcement, and willing to back those demands with violence towards ALL cops, because those cops DIDN'T "go rogue." They operated within the confines of and under the cover of a SYSTEM that is so severely broken that their grotesque behavior is mostly just considered "part of the culture" and "a cost of doing business".

    Why does it take a YEAR to bring charges against a cop when the dashcam video clearly shows him murdering a citizen? Because he didn't "go rogue." He performed AS EXPECTED.

    THAT EXPECTATION is what people are responding violently to.
     
  6. Nexlev

    Nexlev King

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    America did mistreat Japanese citizens in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. It's good to remember these things and to learn, not to make the same mistakes. It's a lot easier to judge the people in the past though, when we dehumanize them and view them extracted from the emotions in the air at the time. The fear of terrorism that we feel today is not even a sliver compared to the fear of a real nation bringing the attack to our soil, as our country prepares to ship all our sons and brothers to foreign battlefields. These events also occurred with WWI in the not too distant past, and the death toll in that war makes everything since then feeble in comparison.

    If we start taking rights away from US citizens because of fear that is much less justified than the fear my grandparents generation felt, then we deserve the guilt and unintended consequences we'll suffer. It's worth making the distinction that Trump isn't talking about interning anyone, nonetheless, his proposal(s) are unprecedented and out of proportion to the real risks. I've said it before I'll say it again, freedom over security.
     
  7. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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  8. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Ah, yes. This makes sense.
     
  9. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    I agree that you are spot on, but you should be aware that Trump IS actively citing the internment programs of WWII as precedent for his position and the necessity thereof. A quick entry of "Trump Roosevelt internment" into your favorite search engine should net you plenty of links to choose from. You can read your favorite news source, or catch video clips of his speech directly.
     
  10. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    OTOH you have much more reasonable conservatives who don't need to rewrite history to make their point or keep their beliefs. :beer:
     
  11. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Three pages in, and we have seen numerous instances of bashing on Trump, labeling him as a racist, insulting those who support him and calling them dangerous - the usual regressive defaming and distraction tactics. What has not been addressed in a single post is the core of the issue, namely the concerns regarding security and social stability. It's so much easier to launch personal attacks against a person rather than address the issue at hand.

    Are most Muslims peaceful people? Of course. Trump has said that himself. The problem is that in every Muslim sample population you will have a significant number of people who hold pernicious beliefs. That is just a statistically obvious fact, proven by virtually every poll done both in Islamic as in Western countries, as well as by the behaviour of Muslims throughout Western Europe. The problem is not even so much just terrorism, though a small minority of Muslims are indeed jihadists whose goal is to become a martyr and kill as many infidels as possible. But the real problem is Islamism, and the promotion of Muslim superiority and the hatred towards the West which accompanies it. Conservatively speaking, Islamists worldwide make up around 20% of Muslims. While the number tends to be smaller in Western countries, we are still talking about large swaths of people. And the problem doesn't end there. Even among the non-Islamists there are fundamentalists who hold detestable views when it comes to liberal values, like the treatment of women, treatment of homosexuals, or freedom of speech.

    Japan has realized that. It's virtually impossible for a Muslim to immigrate into Japan. And the few who already live there have poor chances of becoming Japanese citizens. The Koran is forbidden in Japan. Preaching Islam is punishable by jail or even by deportation. Hence there are almost no Muslims in Japan, and the country doesn't have any of the problems Western Europe is facing. There hasn't been a Muslim terrorist attack for decades, there are no Muslim parallel societies like in countless European cities, no attempts to implement sharia and blasphemy laws, no discussions about halal food, no dramatically increased rape rates like in Sweden, Norway and England, and no fear of being outbred, depite the Japanese having very few children. Japan is one of the most religiously tolerant countries there is, but they looked at the world, decided they wanted nothing to do with the problems that Islam brings, and they make no apologies for it.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with the Japanese approach, although it certainly works. Nor do I have to agree with Trump to point all this out. But his suggestion is quite rational in light of what is going on in the world when it comes to radical Islam. I'm rather dubious to whether a ban is the correct solution to the problem, but at least he acknowledges that a problem exists. The real concern I have as someone from the left, is that none of the democratic candidates have the balls to even speak about the problem. Clinton refused to do it, and Bernie Sanders embarassingly blamed the Syria conflict on climate change. This is deluded behaviour, and a far worse problem than Trump could ever be.
     
  12. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    Wut :ack:
     
  13. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    His suggestion is in no way, form or shape rational.

    insignificant numbers. That's the part where Trump has been repeating lies from the start.

    Also re: Japan, most of what you say either A)apply to all foreigners, regardless of religion (reluctance to rent, difficulties becoming citizens, etc), or b)is just plainly false (there is no ban on the Koran in Japan, there are 30-40 mosque in Japan, etc.

    The claim that Japan "bans Muslims" is just one big falsehood.

    EDIT: removed the part about death penalty since the above post did the same.
     
  14. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    death got edited to deportation. it was way more fun when Funky wrote "death". I mean, if you're gonna go for it, go all the way right?
     
  15. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    51% who are in favor of sharia is an insignificant number? Check any poll you want on these issues, the results are similar.

    I didn't say that Japan bans Muslims. But Islam is treated with extreme precaution. It's similar in Eastern Europe by the way. The Chinese are waking up as well.

    Yeah, had a typo in there first. It's a rather natural slip to write "punishable by death" when you're talking about Islam.
     
  16. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    You made specific claims that are demonstrably false. There is no ban on the Koran in Japan ; Muslims are not more or less likely to become citizens than any other foreigners. Preaching Islam is not banned, as demonstrated by the existance of dozens of mosque in Japan.

    This is a myth some elements of the Anti-Muslim right is spreading.
     
  17. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Please let him into the country to take Piers Morgan back with him in his hand luggage. Along with Katie Hopkins.

     
  18. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

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    Actually, these "concerns" have been addressed. They aren't "the core" of anything except the fear mongering publicity stunt of the moment that is the Trump campaign.

    The pretense that fourteen deaths on one extraordinary day presents an existential threat in a nation where there are 10,000 births per day is far too ridiculous to be "the core" of anything. If you want to call pointing out the ridiculous as ridiculous "defaming and distracting" so be it...but you aren't advancing your position by it any further than Trump advances his through the pandering nonsense that he spouts to inflame his crazy followers.

    He has absolute control over the lunatic fringe that has been long since welcomed into the GOP. That fringe may be enough to get him the nomination. But by revealing that fringe for what they are he is destroying whatever little credibility the GOP had left when Dick Cheney got through with it.
     
  19. sherbz

    sherbz Emperor

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    Yes you did - and not germans, funnily enough. Maybe its because they werent yellow

    :agree:
     
  20. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Donald Trump can do this via this act.
     

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