Is Trump Right? or Trump’s Dumb Muslim Plan

[abradley]

As for the Japanese in Hawaii, they were 1/3 the population plus Hawaii was under martial law for the duration.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

As for the Japanese in Hawaii, they were 1/3 the population plus Hawaii was under martial law for the duration.

Considering that Hawaii wasn't part of the United states at the time what happened there really isn't all that relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[abradley]

The most ironic part is that the far right tries to piggy back off the legacy of Martin Luther King and Lincoln by claiming how the GOP abolished slavery and advanced the civil rights act (which was true), but conveniently forget that the parties gradually switched ideologies in the past few decades. They absurdly claim that the left are "true racists" while spewing hateful xenophobic bigotry themselves.

Hmmmm, wrong:

The Myth of Republican Racism by MONA CHAREN August 26, 2014 12:00 AM

As the South abandoned its prejudices, it shifted to the GOP.
{Snip}
Okay, but didn’t all the old segregationist senators leave the Democratic party and become Republicans after 1964? No, just one did: Strom Thurmond. The rest remained in the Democratic party — including former Klansman Robert Byrd, who became president pro tempore of the Senate.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/386257/myth-republican-racism-mona-charen

Read the whole article, interesting.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hmmmm, wrong

Hmmmm...revisionist history...with a link no less to make it look more credible. Hilarious.

 

[BvBPL]

I'm not sure the President has the authority to impose a religious requirement on immigration. Congress is specifically barred from enacting laws with religious requirements; I'm not sure about Executive powers, off the top of my head. As for Carter, he didn't restrict visas of Iranians because of their religion, and he specifically cited humanitarian concerns as an exception.

Speaking only to the legality of Trump's plan, 8 USC §1132 (f) provides the president with broad discretionary powers to limit entry into the United States.

The First Amendment largely doesn't enter into it because non-resident aliens are outside of the US and therefore have no First Amendment rights to argue. However, a special case exists for First Amendment cases that enable taxpayer lawsuits. It is hypothetically possible that a taxpayer case could be brought for this, but that would face barriers both in terms of standing and legal reasoning.

How this would affect resident aliens could be a bit trickier. A resident alien who departs the US and then attempts to reenter but is barred under the Trump rule would have a much stronger case to oppose the law.

that all speaks to Trump barring entry to Muslims. It doesn't really speak to deporting resident aliens. I'm not sure if that's part of his plan or not, but his discretionary powers would likely be much more limited.

 

[Commodore]

Considering that Hawaii wasn't part of the United states at the time what happened there really isn't all that relevant to the discussion at hand.

Small correction: Hawai'i was part of the United States, it just hadn't attained statehood yet. It was still considered part of the sovereign territory of the United States though. It was annexed by the US in 1896.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Small correction: Hawai'i was part of the United States, it just hadn't attained statehood yet. It was still considered part of the sovereign territory of the United States though. It was annexed by the US in 1896.

I shouldn't have used "not part of," though I suspect that people living in Guam or Puerto Rico might have some interesting perspectives on the subject of territories vs states.

 

[Commodore]

I shouldn't have used "not part of," though I suspect that people living in Guam or Puerto Rico might have some interesting perspectives on the subject of territories vs states.

I don't know about Guam, but given how those statehood votes always go in Puerto Rico, it is clear they are quite content being a territory. I know there is an independence movement there, but last time I heard it had even less support than those pushing for statehood.

 

[Grisu]

The plan is so incredibly silly I'm amazed it's even taken seriously.

"ISIS threatens our western values and way of life so let's trample them ourselves so there's nothing left for ISIS to destroy"....brilliant

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The funniest part of it is that from the interviews I've seen in the past couple days there is no "plan." At BEST there is a concept.

Trump: Ban the Muslims.
Question: How do you identify Muslims?
Trump: Errrrr...
Question: Are you talking about denying visas, or stopping tourism as well?
Trump: Errr, ummmm...
Question: What about Muslims from other western countries?
Trump: Ahhh...
Question: Do you expect to get this through congress, or do you think it would be an executive order?
Trump: Ummm...

As with ALL of Trump's positions, there is nothing to this but an inflammatory screech, followed by total cluelessness as to how to even THINK about getting it done, or if it is even possible.

 

[Grisu]

The funniest part of it is that from the interviews I've seen in the past couple days there is no "plan." At BEST there is a concept.

Trump: Ban the Muslims.
Question: How do you identify Muslims?
Trump: Errrrr...
Question: Are you talking about denying visas, or stopping tourism as well?
Trump: Errr, ummmm...
Question: What about Muslims from other western countries?
Trump: Ahhh...
Question: Do you expect to get this through congress, or do you think it would be an executive order?
Trump: Ummm...

As with ALL of Trump's positions, there is nothing to this but an inflammatory screech, followed by total cluelessness as to how to even THINK about getting it done, or if it is even possible.

Identifying muslims is easy: everybody who fails Bush's test to prove oneself as a Christian

 

[Funky]

You made specific claims that are demonstrably false. There is no ban on the Koran in Japan ; Muslims are not more or less likely to become citizens than any other foreigners. Preaching Islam is not banned, as demonstrated by the existance of dozens of mosque in Japan.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. All my points which you try to refute are correct. That there are only a few dozen mosques in Japan proves my point. Do your research.

The pretense that fourteen deaths on one extraordinary day presents an existential threat in a nation where there are 10,000 births per day is far too ridiculous to be "the core" of anything.

Who is talking about an existential threat? Why think in such extremes?

Islamic terror is a problem. A problem which will increase by having more Muslims in your country. Currently the percentage of Muslims in the US is 0.8%, and you already have had several terror attacks. Once the population gets to 2-3%, further problems will set in, like pushing of elements of sharia onto society, formation of parallel societies, spreading of hate towards America etc. This has happened in every Muslim diaspora in the world. Look at Western Europe, at Australia, at China, at India. This will be no different in America. Do you want to put up with these problems? Then by all means, allow Muslims unlimited access to your country. Or will you learn from the experiences of other countries? I really hope you do.

Simply denying that there are serious problems related to rising Muslim populations makes you at best look ill-informed, at worst it is dishonest and cowardly.

 

[Grisu]

I am sorry, but you are wrong. All my points which you try to refute are correct. That there are only a few dozen mosques in Japan proves my point. Do your research.

how exactly are they correct, when there's nothing to back that claim up?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...graphic-says-japan-keeps-out-radical-islam-t/ ....one shouldn't believe every chain letter one gets.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Who is talking about an existential threat? TRUMP. And all his little boneheaded minions. That's how he is justifying abandoning all American values...because we have to avoid being destroyed. He uses exactly the same nonsensical made up stuff that you vomit all over yourself, but he has a platform where he reaches similarly grotesque individuals instead of having someone like Oda call him on the crap he makes up.

The ones spreading hate towards America are Trump, his followers, and you.

 

[illram]

Check out Japan's Constitution. It's pretty great. (We umm..."helped" them with it...)

It'd be kinda hard to have some sort of institutionalized ban on Muslims and Islam over there, what with freedom of religion and equal protection being the law of the land.

 

[Evie]

I am sorry, but you are wrong. All my points which you try to refute are correct. That there are only a few dozen mosques in Japan proves my point. Do your research.

I did do my research. The list of "facts" (not actually factual) you cite is part of the debunked chain letter Grisu pointed at.

It's been debunked. It's false.

 

[Zkribbler]

internment doesn't violate the Constitution, wars allow for the suspension of rights and privileges

OMG! When did Congress declare war and against whom did they declare it?

 

[Funky]

how exactly are they correct, when there's nothing to back that claim up?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...graphic-says-japan-keeps-out-radical-islam-t/ ....one shouldn't believe every chain letter one gets.

One also shouldn't believe random articles one finds on the internet. My sources are not some chain letters but my wife and my sister-in-law.

My wife studied Japanese, lived in Japan for several years, has many friends there who she communicates with regularly, and she goes there on business trips once or twice a year. My sister-in-law is in fact Japanese and lived there till the age of 25, she married my brother in Japan, and they go there every year at least once. I have discussed this issue with both of them on several occasions and they absolutely confirm what I said. While it is true that religious preaching in general is frowned upon and citizenships are difficult to acquire for everyone, Muslims have it especially hard. Islam is generally not viewed as being on the same level as Christianity, Taoism or Buddhism.

Who is talking about an existential threat? TRUMP.

Citation needed.

That's how he is justifying abandoning all American values...because we have to avoid being destroyed. He uses exactly the same nonsensical made up stuff that you vomit all over yourself, but he has a platform where he reaches similarly grotesque individuals instead of having someone like Oda call him on the crap he makes up.

So the polls that show that large minorities or even majorities of Muslim populations are for sharia are made up by Trump? The vast numbers of Muslims who support jihad and terrorism are made up too? Pull your head out of the sand, man. It is 2015. Ten years ago you could have got away with arguing that the numbers are insignificant. Meanwhile the poll numbers have spread into the heads of even the most hardcore leftists. Not to mention the translation of these poll numbers into the dispicable behaviour we see by Muslims around the globe every single day. And no, not all Muslims. Many Muslims pose no problems whatsoever. But many do. And the sooner we realize that, the earlier we can have an honest conversation about it.

The ones spreading hate towards America are Trump, his followers, and you.

Lol. So saying that a subset of Muslims holds dangerous beliefs is spreading hate towards America? Interesting.

Listen. Do you want to know why Trump's suggestion, which is arguably over the top, is getting so much attention? It is the same reason why right-wing parties are on the rise all across Europe. It is the fault of the left. The left has avoided the issue of Islam like the devil avoids holy water. Just a few weeks ago we heard again how Obama said after the Paris attacks that the terrorists were no Muslims and that Islam was a religion of peace. As we all know, this is simply ridiculous, and to maintain this point is pathetic. People don't take it anymore. They see the threat that politicized Islam poses every day, and they want answers. But they don't get any answers from the left, at least not any honest ones. This silence on the left has caused the battleground on this issue to be ceded to the right. They at least acknowledge that there is a problem.
Trust me, I'd much prefer Hillary Clinton to speak honestly about Islam and what to do against the threat of Islamism. But since she doesn't have the balls to do so, people move on and listen to what other politicians have to say, even if what they say may seem extreme.

 

[Evie]

One also shouldn't believe random articles one finds on the internet. My sources are not some chain letters but my wife and my sister-in-law.

My wife studied Japanese, lived in Japan for several years, has many friends there who she communicates with regularly, and she goes there on business trips once or twice a year. My sister-in-law is in fact Japanese and lived there till the age of 25, she married my brother in Japan, and they go there every year at least once. I have discussed this issue with both of them on several occasions and they absolutely confirm what I said. While it is true that religious preaching in general is frowned upon and citizenships are difficult to acquire for everyone, Muslims have it especially hard. Islam is generally not viewed as being on the same level as Christianity, Taoism or Buddhism.

Anecdote's plural: still not data.

In addition to which, someone who left Japan shortly after her teenage years, let alone occasional tourists, would simply not be a particularly reliable source on how a small minority of which they're not part is treated. Their information would at best consist of what they might occasionally read in the media and hear from the few other people they have contact with. Hardly reliable sources.

In comparison, Politifacts is a site that's well known and reputed for debunking fake political "news".

One of these is a reliable source. The other is not.

 

[Grisu]

One also shouldn't believe random articles one finds on the internet. My sources are not some chain letters but my wife and my sister-in-law.

My wife studied Japanese, lived in Japan for several years, has many friends there who she communicates with regularly, and she goes there on business trips once or twice a year. My sister-in-law is in fact Japanese and lived there till the age of 25, she married my brother in Japan, and they go there every year at least once. I have discussed this issue with both of them on several occasions and they absolutely confirm what I said. While it is true that religious preaching in general is frowned upon and citizenships are difficult to acquire for everyone, Muslims have it especially hard. Islam is generally not viewed as being on the same level as Christianity, Taoism or Buddhism.

Politifact is hardly a random article...FWIW Snopes has a similar debunking of those 'facts' you presented. It's funny that you claim you didn't get it through that chain letter yet claims you make almost exactly mirror those made in it. Or maybe your wife got it from there...

It's also kinda strange that you demand citation further down when you provide none for your own demonstrably false claims other than vague references to people you know.