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Is Trump Right? or Trump’s Dumb Muslim Plan

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by abradley, Dec 10, 2015.

  1. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    How much do you know about polling?

    Which survey doesn't, to some extent, suffer from self-selection/non-response bias? If you go door-to-door, the respondents must still be willing to answer the survey, and typical industry practice is to disclose the topic of the survey upfront as a matter of good practice and ethical research. If the respondent is interested enough to spend some time answering your questions, that is in itself self-selection.

    Non-verified respondents is a problem not just for online surveys, but pretty much any kind of anonymous surveys, which are sometimes necessary. Those are distinct from surveys in which the answers are kept confidential, but the identities of the respondents are very much known to the researchers, hence allowing the respondents to be verified.

    Now, if you have an anonymous online survey that is data-checked with demographic quotas and weighted in accordance with general population, would that survey be unreliable? Sure, it may not be as reliable as, say, stratified or truly random door-to-door sampling with verifiable respondents (in which respondents can still outright lie if they want to). But it's also not just a random survey that is worthless. Simply dismissing any kind of online survey is like dismissing Wikipedia articles because they are Wikipedia articles - it's the opposite of demonstrating genuine knowledge of what you're talking about.

    Another favourite of mine is the often-made claim that a general population survey of 1,000 people cannot possibly be representative.

    As I posted earlier in the thread, so do the people in the UK apparently (and YouGov isn't exactly a random crappy research outfit).
     
  2. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    I am at a loss as to what relevance this one-sided rant about European history has to the topic at hand. Yeah, European history was bloody, as history has been in all parts of the world. What is your point?

    So actions by Turkey and Saudi Arabia are the fault of the West? By legitimate government you mean Assad?

    Oh, come on...

    It shows. There is no way to engage with such a biased worldview in which the West is responsible for everything bad that happens in the world, no matter how small or even non-existant its influence is, just because you deem it to have power. I am sorry, I don't know what else to say.


    Warpus, warpus... You are criticizing Trump for painting Muslims with a broad brush and then you say something like that about another diverse group of people? How is that in any way better than what you criticize?
     
  3. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Dude,

    42% of all Republicans support an incredibly racist "not even going to pretend this isn't racist" plan. And a lot of those who don't outright support it are "undecided" !

    So yes, it seems that the base of the Republican party is made up of a bunch of bigoted dumbarses. Those numbers don't lie.

    If a political party I was supporting had numbers like that, I would run.
     
  4. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    1. Do you think it would be good style to quote the poll in which 51% of US Muslims are in favor of sharia and say Muslims are a bunch of bigoted dumbarses?

    2. How is the approval of the plan racist?

    3. If you make such accusations, how would you suggest dealing with the problem of Islamic extremism? Deny that it exists, as the democrat candidates have done?
     
  5. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I think you may be assuming that you're not talking to a bigot.
     
  6. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Let's go with something a bit more equivalent to what Trump said.

    If 41% of a Muslim political party in the U.S. said they would be for a plan that would see Jewish immigrants and travellers barred from the U.S., and most of the rest of the members of this political party said they were "undecided" about the plan..

    then yes, I would call the voter base of that political party the same thing I just called the Republicans.
     
  7. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Well, unlike in Jordan (100%), Lebanon (99%) or Egypt (98%), in the US "only" seven percent of Muslims hold unfavorable views of Jews. At what point is it ok to call Muslims bigoted dumbarses? 30%? 40%?

    Would the Muslims in your scenario deserve just as much criticim if Jews were reliably blowing themselves up and committing acts of terror around the globe, seeking to impose their religion on everyone else, and favoring oppressive religious laws which violate pretty much every human right?
     
  8. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'm not going into this any further than I already did. You have my answer and understand my position.
     
  9. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    Are you trying to be ironic? When much greater than 7% of Americans don't trust Muslims or atheists, etc...
     
  10. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    No rant, just puting things into perspective. The point is that if the West wants to hold high moral ground it has to act like it. Not invade other countries just becouse, not surpress or try to liberate others so that it can excercise more control and not conspire against rightful souvereing goverments. Its all done with the sense of superiority and its a joke....

    If you make friends with criminals you cant be a saint. Assad is supported by most of the Syrians.





    You seem to be a honest guy and I appreciate that but how can you read into what I have written that the West is responsible for everything? I am saying it has to act more responsibly.
     
  11. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    Your position is inconsistent, and you know it. This overview was posted on the first page of this thread by classical_hero:



    Following your logic, you would have to call the Muslims in all these countries "bigoted dumbarses". Which you will not do, of course.

    Your double standard and hypocrisy have been exposed.
     
  12. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Sorry, but the political decisions of governments are not equivalent to the racist views of all of its citizens, nor is it equivalent to what I was talking about in my initial post.
     
  13. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    "Israel" is not a religion, and "Islam" doesn't issue passports. Are those countries listed refusing entry to Jews, or to Israelis? The deliberate conflation of politics and religion kind of highlights one of the ongoing problems I have with the American Right, not just with Trump's recent comments.
     
  14. Funky

    Funky Emperor

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    I showed you how virtually all people in Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt hold unfavorable views of Jews. Must I really extend this list to all Muslim countries where unfavorable views of Jews are held by 42% or more people? It would get pretty long...


    Who is talking about the West or moral highground? We were talking about how a reformation of Islam is necessary. This is an ideological struggle which is going on this moment in the Muslim world. We can and should do our best to support the reformers, but apart from that it has nothing to do with the West.

    Rightful sovereign governments like Saddam Hussein's Baath party? The Taliban?

    That just isn't true. While he indeed has some support by the Alevites and some Shiites, as well as the Christian minority, this is not because Assad is so popular, but because the alternative is so much more grim, especially for said religious groups.

    Well, I'm with you there. But we also have to realize that many problems are not of our making. And often there is no correct solution how the West should react. Should America have invaded Iraq? Most people say no. Would the same people have called for action if Saddam had continued to butcher the Kurds? Who knows.
    Now some people criticize the US for not doing enough against the Islamic State. Should they go in? Who is to say? It's an extremely complicated situation. We don't know what the future will bring. Sometimes it is only possible to evaluate what responsible foreign policy is in hindsight.


    As if there was a difference in this context. What do you think the reason is those countries aren't letting in Israelis? Do you think they would not accept Israelis if Israel was all Muslim?
     
  15. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    One MIGHT imagine, *might* that the number of wars waged between Israel and Arab countries, and the fact that Israel continues to occupy and colonize lands that belong to diverse Arab countries and/or people under international law, *might* have something to do with it.

    But nah, surely it's about their being jews, which explain why they don't ban Jews from any other countries including the country with the largest Jewish population in the world.
     
  16. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I'm not falling for this deflection.

    "Well, look at all those other people who might be bigots, what about them?" No, we're not talking about them, we were talking about Republicans.
     
  17. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    How is supporting Wahabi Islam of Sauds who are the main sponsor of IS going to help reform Islam? You cant have your cake and eat it too. How is destroying secular goverments of Iraq, Lybia, Syria and supporting islamic opposition going to help solve problem with radical Islam? US according to leaked info was conspiring on taking down Assad through use of sectarian conflict. Do you call that help to reform Islam? Seriously?

    I am hardly going to defend crazy Saddam but had he lived up till now 90% of all things in Iraq would have been better then they are now. This isnt just mistake but major crime.

    O.K. So it is in fact true. People are for Assad becouse they want stability.

    The problem is that if you going to use force against some sovereing entity it cant be done with secret secondary motives.
     
  18. Nexlev

    Nexlev King

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    Why try to reason with someone that says the barbarian west should lend more of a helping hand to their culturally superior younger brother?
     
  19. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I think I've come up with a quick, preliminary test of American patriotism:

    Which group of countries do you think the United States should be more like?
    A) Canada, the United Kingdom, France, and South Korea.
    B) Iran, Libya, Sudan, and Syria.
     
  20. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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    :lol: Have you been in university of misunderstanding learning the art of twisting others words?


    We need to see that the problems we have had as a society someone else may have right now. We can be sympathetic and try to be of genuine help or we can use it to assert our superiority and try to control others. There are different cosequences for each approach...
     

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