Is WBing in Ivory as Khmer Fair?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Yeosol, Apr 25, 2008.

  1. Yeosol

    Yeosol monarch

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    Whenever I play Khmer I add in an Ivory tile if there are none on my continent. If a close civ has one then I think it's fair to leave it as is and decide on whether the ivory is worth a war. However if there is none on the content I just add one in with the WB.

    Now technically this is cheating. However given the Khmer UU situation...
    1. Ivory is very rare, you would only get it in 1:3 or 1:4 games.
    2. The UU is regarded as pretty crappy anyways.

    I think this is a justifiable solution to playing Khmer.

    What do you think? Is this an unfair advantage? Id say no more then starting with Gold in the capital, and probably less.
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It's an extra :) early on too (not to mention, UU or not, having elephants is strong. Who cares if the UU variant is barely better? Elephants are good anyway). It weakens the challenge instantly, though not to the extent of dropping a difficulty level for example.

    "Cheating" in regards to what, by the way? Are you competing against another person? Trying to submit a top score on the forums? If you're just playing the AI, you can and should do anything that makes the game more fun for you. In one of his RPCs, madscientist gave himself a modern armor to play within the context of a different set of rules more easily. Was that cheating? More like, who cares :p?
     
  3. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    Agreed on both points. The easy happiness and opening up war elephants (or the marginally better ballista elephants) is a pretty substantial bonus, but as long as you're playing the AI, does it really matter if you use WB?
     
  4. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    Would you play Rome without iron? Persia without horses?

    No. Go ahead and use WB or regenerate the map. Personally, I don't like WB because it gives me too much information.
     
  5. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I hope you're being sarcastic.... Both the civs you pointed have a lot of potential besides their UU and it is a shame if you only measure them by the skull smashing ability ;)

    About the topic: if you give via WB iron to Gilga ,Brennus or CharleMagne because they need metals for their UU, it is also fair to give Ivory to khmer.... but if you don't do it, why to use a diferent standart for the khmer?
     
  6. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    I wouldn't - slippery slope. Would you give yourself iron if you were Japan (their UU specifically needs iron, not iron or copper like the one it replaces), or would you restart if there's nobody around to Quechua-rush?

    A reasonable compromise would be to play on a tropical map.
     
  7. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Given the Khmer UB, and the fact that I've annihilated half an incoming stack simply because the Khmer UU always targets mounted units first, I'd say no -- deal with it as it comes.
     
  8. Wlauzon

    Wlauzon Prince

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    Yes it is cheating.

    You are giving yourself a sure bet over the AI, that you would get much less often in a straight game.
     
  9. siggboy

    siggboy Monarch/Epic

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    For me a part of the challenge is to deal with the situation that is handed to you on a given map. Adding resources because your early UU needs them is boring.

    Do you take away marble from your industrious neighbour in WB just because he beats you to every wonder that you want to build? Probably not, and probably you should just go without the elephants as Khmer if you don't find any nearby. It's not necessary to leverage a civ's unique unit in order to play a strong game. Just look at the German and USA UUs, many games are over before they are even being built...
     
  10. zombiestomp

    zombiestomp Chieftain

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    don't do it except unless you're just trying to have fun. it's totally cheating to open worldbuilder.
     
  11. zyphyr

    zyphyr Prince

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    Is it cheating? Sure. Does it matter? Nope.

    If it makes things more fun for you, then have at it.
     
  12. pigswill

    pigswill fly (one day)

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    Giving yourself ivory means you learn how to win with Sury with his UU available. What you don't learn is how to win with Sury without his UU.
    If you're not in a competition and you're being upfront about it then the only person you might be cheating is yourself, and that's your choice.
     
  13. Morgrad

    Morgrad Attack Rodent

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    If you'll stop playing the game and start another one because of no ivory, but would rather keep playing it with ivory, then go ahead.

    It's a single player game - do whatever you want. :)

    I click the box that disallows WB before I start, because as someone said earlier, it's a "slippery slope". I *hate* not having WB because of the 2000BC 6 horse-archer barbarians event = you lose, period. I wonder who thought up that stupid event?
     
  14. Ibian

    Ibian King

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    The question was if its fair. The answer to that question is irrelevant. The relevant question is if its cheating, and the answer to that question is yes. How you feel about that is what matters.
     
  15. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

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    I was only partly being sarcastic. I don't blame someone who is getting used to a civ for wanting to play with his UU. And yeah, when I play as Rome, I am wanting to crush my opposition with Praetorians. You are correct, of course, in that Rome's leaders' traits are very good and the UB is quite nice too.

    And then, to balance things out, how would you "reward" the AI in WB who doesn't have an early UU? What would you give America, for instance? Fish? Corn?

    Sury is unique in that his UU requires a relatively rare resource. Since the UU also requires a substantial investment in late Classical age techs, it's not as if giving him elephants = auto-win.

    I don't think I would do it, but I can see someone wanting to do it.

    Another way to get a feel for a UU is to play Rhye's and Fall or an Earth map. You'll get the resources you need when you need them.
     
  16. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    It's a game, designed to be fun. If you think it is more fun to have the UU because you want to get the most out of your civ then do it. I'll often regen a start I get if I don't like it--especially starts where the capital is >50% coastal tiles (blech!!!). I don't see any difference between regenning til you get a start you like and adding an ivory so you can have the flavour of your civ's UU. Yes, elephants are strong and will make the game a bit easier, but it is not drastically game-breaking.
     
  17. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    If you feel the need to rationalize it, then you are definitely doing something wrong.

    Playing the game as is: good.
    Playing a different game (one where you always get your favorite resource): fine.
    Playing a different game, but trying to convince yourself you're not: bad.
     
  18. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    The thing is though that out of all the strategic resources ivory is by far the most situational. The thing is with iron/copper/horses if you don't have it in your empire, usually your closest neighbour has it. Fine. But with ivory often times you will not have ANY on your entire continent. So, imho, if you want to wb it in to play with your uu I don't have a problem with that per se, and if you want to rationalize it I don't have a problem per se with that either. I personally wouldn't wb in ivory, but I might regen a time or two.

    Also, if you wb in an ivory, you should probably wb out something else of value to make up for it, like stone/marble or something else that is rare (i.e., that you only have 1 of)
     
  19. Ibian

    Ibian King

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    Ivory is a happy resource that doubles as a strategic resource. Seen from that angle, its better than horses, copper, or iron (aside from the era each of them is useful). Or whale, beaver, etc. Its also a mined hill or a grassland watermill with replaceable parts. Its a little more than a minor adjustment. Editing the UU to not require ivory would be less of a cheat.

    Im not saying dont do it, just for the record. What i am saying is, be aware of what you are doing.
     
  20. Calder

    Calder Warlord

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    I'm just about in the finishing stages of my first try with Khmer, and although I was lucky enough to have 4 Ivory tiles within my first two cities, the experience I've had with the UU leads me to suggest that should I pick that civ again, I wouldn't be too upset if I didn't have Ivory. I think I only built around 6 Ballista's, and by the time I was able to upgrade to cavalry, I only had one left to upgrade. The wars I had with them were fought mostly against war elephants at 50% odds, and mine feared badly, needless to say my many CRIII maces and early trebs brought on the greatest fear to my rivals. Ironically playing Khmer has not only given me my highest score to date, but the most enjoyable.
     

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