Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? I say No

[mboettcher]

I think as you have to use valuable forests and population to get the overflow and since it is also part of the game mechanics I think it isn't. It conserves resource and food values just converts to gold using a Civ specific advantage (which is the point of the game I believe. Recognize, position and maximize advantages, especially unique ones, to keep pace with a bonus heavy AI). This 'exploit' is simply playing efficiently. There are many other well documented ways to play efficiently for many different leader/civ/resource/map combinations. So why is timing chops to get gold an exploit? With prot its about the only strong economic move that is available and it requires stone. Any strat that requires/maximizes resource use is obviously going to be very strong in comparison to more general strats as they are situation specific.


Okay I've ranted. If you find that this strategy is an exploit I at least ask that you consider the dozen or so other strategies that are designed to create localized overwhelming advantages (and are in fact necessary to winning at higher levels) before drawing a conclusion. That said I don't use this strategy that often. If it comes up fine but planning an overall game plan around it doesn't seem prudent in the long run.

 

[Crusher1]

Yes, it is an exploit. So is going to War against AIs. So is manipulating Diplomacy. So is manipulating Trade. So is playing Marathon, etc, etc, etc. You are exploiting a gaming aspect to gain an advantage. Just because it's an exploit doesn't mean its not an "acceptable" strategy.

 

[Earthling]

No, it's not really an exploit, first of all because it's simply not that GOOD and requires a lot of micromanagement. Whip two pop to get a walls (often useless building) and some gold - has it's uses but isn't really exploitive. The thing that decides it for me is the fact that this method isn't really that much better than other methods to turn forests/hammers into gold, like building incomplete wonders. Maybe it can save you in an immediate wartime strike situation (where, well, going into anarchy also can) but it doesn't matter. And I don't really use this that much myself either, at least not on the whipping side of things.

That all said, I DO feel that chopping itself is rather overpowered in general - it's one of the number one ways for humans to keep up with AI production advantages (if an AI chopped like a human it could run over every other player almost always on Immortal/Deity), and I'd rather reduce both than have things the way they are. Chopping trees into axemen doesn't fit a realism point of view and it could be worked around gameplaywise, so I'll give you that.

 

[Crusher1]

first of all because it's simply not that GOOD

You are correct. It is actually quite SUPERIOR and thus is much better than good.

 

[r_rolo1]

So, we are talking here of whip/chop overflows or of what happens if that overflow is bigger than the prod needed for the item in queue? There is a diference, you know....

 

[DaveMcW]

It's an exploit of myself, BOOOO to tedious and unnatural micromanagement!

 

[Earthling]

No, it's really not all that good - essentially you're turning your forests into gold instead of other uses. At it's most efficient it's just slightly better than losing a bid for a wonder - and it's not at the most efficient earlier in the game, since you want granaries for whipping and math for chopping. Not that it's not useful on certain settings/against the AI in some cases but a lot of times you're just as well off putting your worker turns and forests into something more useful (for instance, a courthouse which will save you plenty of gold after a while, rather than a building like walls you wouldn't need).

 

[Elkad]

I use it in the endgame a fair amount too with pure overproduction and specific multipliers too. Workboats out of your IW+Drydock city for example..

One of the unofficial patches at removes the extra multipliers, reducing the overflow gold significantly. So you get your 100% bonus for the Explorer in your HE city, but the overflow hammers only get the regular forge/factory bonuses when converted to cash (same as if you built cash directly). Overflow is still worth it, just not quite as ridiculously overpowered.

 

[Earthling]

Oh yeah, that's the other thing, I actually would be perfectly fine if straight out building wealth/research/culture was increased to 2 per hammer; I'd rather do that than mess with overflow, and then there just wouldn't be reason to mess with it so much. Late game overflow is definitely better than that as things stand now, but if the thread is referring to just like the protective walls trick it's only one of many ways to do something usefully.

 

[Crusher1]

No, it's really not all that good

Once again, correct. It is far SUPERIOR. It's more than apparent from the way your describing it's usefulness in conjunction with game timing and transitioning points that you don't have a lot of intensive training with it. In virtually every game I have used with this strategy to improve my skill with it - it has always supplied a much much much greater opening, tech rate, expansion rate, etc, then when not using it.

If you have the trees, the trait, and are not using it, you are making the game much more difficult and slower than it needs to be.

Protective gives better yields with stone, but as you mentioned, it gives you a useless building plus it is less than an ideal tech path, not to mention is slows down math.

CRE/EXP/AGG work best. With CRE virtually every single city has math when you start chopping. With EXP/AGG the 1st and 2nd city typically do not have math, but the rest do. Once again, a very STRONG and POWERFUL technique when used correctly.

No other strategy in the game that I know of allows you to maintain 100% deficit research virtually through 1AD. And as we all know, the early game sets up the rest.

 

[Earthling]

If you have the trees, the trait, and are not using it, you are making the game much more difficult and slower than it needs to be.

Yes, I get what you're saying here - but basically I'd rather not have the protective trait in favor or something more useful, like philosophical or organized. If I DO have it, sure, this is a nice trick, but for the strongest game I'd rather have a better leader and use my forests for something else.

So in the sense of the OP - this isn't an exploit. Even purposefully playing a civ to do this isn't really all that big of deal. It's not at all like purposefully playing Rome or Inca for instance.

 

[JammerUno]

A wall so nice they built it twice, then magically some gold appears because my people actually built it five times and the rest of the work is apparently easily converted to gold? Yeah, that's an exploit, and one that feels particularly lame at that.

 

[Crusher1]

Another question!

What's worse?

- playing as a Warmonger with Persia or Rome on Marathon

Or

- playing as Cathy, using whip/chopping overflow on Standard


I'm betting that no amount of whipping and chopping can ever help out Cathy as much as the Warmonger =D. Looks like they need to Delete some Leaders before anyone cries about successful whip/chopping.

Edit: @ Lansky

Honestly, I find it very difficult to over expand with the technique seeing how quickly your able to discover currency. I usually run out of land before I cannot afford more cities.

 

[Lansky]

I suppose since it gives the best returns people seem to focus on protective walls. As Crusher points out Barracks, Libraries, and Granaries with the proper traits while less "effective" sources of gold are more highly desired and can actually help your empire in manners other than "I wanted some overflow gold".

Whether or not you feel it is fair I guess is the question. I have no qualms myself. Enough things in this game are bent to mess with the player that using one that is not doesn't bother me.


Edit - Even with Cathy's gold overflow I've crashed myself over expanding. So much good land, so little economy =/

 

[Shurdus]

The game mechanics are a bit questionable since I cannot see how people pushing themselves to their very limits can result in younetting some gold. It makes very little sense.

However, the game mechanic is in the game. It is there for you to use. Every single bonus you can get is a bonus that you may want to use... Or not. That is up to you. I personally feel that you need to take every single advantage that you can get, this one is one of them. Who cares if it makes sense? Why would it be unfair? You have the option, if it seems useful to go for it then by all means, please do.

 

[DigitalBoy]

I'm inclined to say "yes," but as I play single player only, I can also simply not use it and it'd be the same as it not being in the game in the first place.

 

[mboettcher]

Org is another trait that is great with it. It has 2 buildings that could be used for this relatively early and both are very useful. Though I'd agree that its not as effective as with Exp, Agg, Cre. Also the Agg use of this strat can also lead strongly into an early war

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't really see how it's an exploit. Gold is really just an expression of extra wealth, it obviously doesn't translate into actual coins or anything. Essentially, what happens is that people get done very efficiently and the game says "ok, go do your 2nd job and we collect taxes on that"

 

[JujuLautre]

Define: exploit

 

[Duckweed]

I would not call this trick superior.

1. It gives you best gains after Math and at that time Currency is one tech away or you have currency already. A few hundred gold from forests is not that important since you are able to gain gold from AIs to support your research then.

2. Stone is rare.

3. While you gain cash, you delay some useful buildings.

4. you lose worker turns

5. It's tedious and give you little gain for above reasons.