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Is Zealotry too powerful?

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Recursive, Aug 30, 2020.

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Is Zealotry (enhancer belief) too powerful?

  1. Yes, it is too powerful

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. No, it's fine the way it is

    24 vote(s)
    100.0%
  3. No, it isn't powerful enough

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Thoughts on this? It seems to me to be at least much stronger than Crusader Spirit / Defender of the Faith as an enhancer belief. You can use Faith to instantly spawn an army of units, whereas with Gold there's a purchase cooldown.
     
  2. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    If you combine it with the effect that gives you gold every time you purchase anything with faith it can be a bit crazy.

    I don't think Zealotry on it's own is too bad though, the faith cost of units get's quite high. To the point that it limits how many you can actually have.
     
  3. InkAxis

    InkAxis Warlord

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    I think that to use it well you would need a very high faith income so it's good. And even then it only works for land units so you would have to have your opponents be close. If anything needs to be adjusted I would just increase the faith costs - but I don't really think it needs to be.
     
  4. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    To focus on these, Defender of the Faith is good. Crusader Spirit.. not so much.

    With both the combat bonus is more of a side effect. Their secondary effect is what defines them. DotF is just much better.
     
  5. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I voted no but i think it's not a simple yes or no question.
    In a vacuum it's absurdly powerful; mass purchase of full XP units and going from no army to a respectable force in one turn with no cool down is ridiculous but it's draw back is it forces the player to play a certain "build" when choosing beliefs in a certain way that your entire religion revolves around generating as much faith as possible so beliefs like mastery, veneration, diligence and the rest of non-faith generating beliefs are just non options or your Zealotry is not as powerful and the same applies to reformation beliefs.
    And this does not just apply to beliefs but also to social policies; in my games Fealty was a must simply to get the 25% discount and as many faith as possible to afford buying units.
    In card games terms i would call Zealotry a "build-around" card that only works in a very specific build that's sole purpose is min/maxing it and Zealotry being the enabler unlike something like Mendicancy which is a generalist belief that just works no matter what "build" you use.
    The other half of your post about Defender of the faith and Crusader's Spirit is an issue with those two beliefs being only superior to the tourism from faith-bought buildings belief that no one takes seriously .... these two esp. Crusader's Spirit are just really weak even if you are steam rolling the game; the instant yields are just so low that capturing a city is comparable to killing like 4 units with Terracotta army.
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I voted no.

    I don't find it that difficult to field a large army. Authority provides tons of production and gold for exactly this purpose. Zealotry can be very strong but you give up a lot of yields to take it. SuperNoobCamper's comparison to a card game is quite apt, Zealotry feels really good when you play it, but it spends a lot of time in your hand doing nothing. It also means you aren't spending faith on missionaries or monasteries or whatever else.
     
    Kim Dong Un, stii, ElliotS and 3 others like this.
  7. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I love Zealotry so it's nice to see general consensus is with me instead of me just being super biased. It's really good, but you're not just giving up a belief that could be used for other good stuff, you're throwing tons of faith that could buy GP or missionaries into units.

    Plus the failcase is that Zealotry either makes it go from easy to win a war to still easy to win a war, or doesn't give you enough to win. In either case where it's not doing much to move the needle you're throwing tens of thousands of faith out the window. Pretty much every other belief gives you something much more worthwhile and some extra strategics.
     
  8. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    My only issue with Zealotry is that there's often no other good alternative for me to select as a Warmonger, and so I automatically pick it. Very rarely do I find one of the options to be realistic or viable. But that's not an issue of balance, it's an issue of overall design. Some kind of second or third Enhancer that made sense to strong Warmongers would be nice (that is to say - 2 brand new Enhancers beyond all the ones we already have).
     
  9. Hinin

    Hinin King

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    To me, a good alternative to Zealotry for warmongers is Inquisition : if you're facing civilizations with especially strong religion pressure (ex. : India in my last game had 120+ pressure in my border cities before i started inquisitioning), then the fact that you are conquering cities left and right gives it plenty of utility. You can wipe enemy beliefs of half the continent (at least, that's what I possess right now) at your pleasure, generate a lot of gold out of it, and the fact that your spies generate happiness is also a good way to tip the scale in your favor. In the end, I managed to make Indian faith disappear : conquest + inquisition meant that pockets of faith that would normally require 3 or 4 missionaries were instead dealt with by using 120 faith inquisitor (with Fealty in the medieval era).
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Syncretism (I think?) can be very good with warmongers. You can conquer civs with other religions and just never convert them to your own. Potentially you can get one religion for your own cities, and use different beliefs that favor puppets in other cities.
     
  11. stii

    stii Prince

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    I'd generally pick defender/crusader spirit over it. By the time I get it I already have a full army at my supply cap. Like I guess it is good if you want to suddenly war someone but it is pretty late for that.
     
  12. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Those are reformation beliefs not enhancers
     
  13. DaniSciB

    DaniSciB Chieftain

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    Nah. It is fine. And it is a reward for Warmongers if you tailored a good religion (Hero Worship/Orders/Crusader Spirit/Zealotry), to be honest I think that Crusader Spirit is considerably stronger, 20% CS plus bonuses on conquest... LOL.

    But you know what is stronger than Zealotry!? The Spanish built in Naval Zealotry... Armada invencible bois, Armada Invencible. :p:p
     
  14. Voremonger

    Voremonger Warlord

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    I think how good Zealotry actually is really depends on the situation.
    If you get a lot of free Faith it can be very good; if you don't it's rather underwhelming.
    I think even as a warmonger Inquisition is better in most games though since as of right now Happiness is a much bigger concern than Unit production.
     
  15. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    I got to play with Zealotry recently, obviously it's a very good belief if you are doing conquests. The Units, especially starting Industrial are quite expensive even with Fealty, it's not so much a consistent, mass production tool as it is an emergency. Therefore I did not find myself using it too many times and did not even need it before Industrial, I think the cost of the Units was very "balanced" (Epic speed if that matters) It has very good Synergy with Veneration. The strategic resource part is not talked about but is very useful too.
    I think in terms of impact it's one of the strongest Enhancers IF you are a warmonger, it's also very fun to use. If it proves to be too powerful, I guess the cooldown would be a reasoable change... I kinda like it the way it is.
     
  16. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Well, the community has spoken. :)
     
    DaniSciB likes this.
  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I agree with others, it seems OK in the context of other Ehancers being fairly strong.

    Also, I'll have to check the religion of the city I'm attacking next time a bunch of mystery units turn up. This might be a rational explanation! XD
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  18. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I have never seen such a consensus here before...

    :grouphug:
     
    ElliotS and Recursive like this.
  19. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    Neither have I!
     
  20. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    But but can we make it so I can buy nukes with it???/ Pweaaaaaseee? :bowdown:
     
    SuperNoobCamper likes this.

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