If we want Alex to go to war with someone, it should be Mansa. Can't let the Financial civ peacefully tech up. I would also try to get Caesar to fight Mansa. They should all blow a bunch of units and leave it wide open for us to go conquering later. Having them all fighting each other will also let us build in peace.
Isabella No Cottages Emperor
- Thread starter Mutineer
- Start date
Actially I have opposit oppinion.
WE can not bribe cesar, he does not like as enoght.
Axel is a whore, he is he will sell himself.
I am more in favor to bribe alex to attack cesar, then we can join alex and take Rome with Piramids from cesar and waste bouth of there armies. Cesar was building military peacefully for some time.
Every one can bribe Alex, that why I stick a bunch of LB to nearest to him city.
I am in favor to bribe him ourself agains Cesar.
I would try to milt Masta out of money by selling him resources. We obtaining more and more resources and soon will be able to use them to milk Masta economically to support OUR research.
WE can not bribe cesar, he does not like as enoght.
Axel is a whore, he is he will sell himself.
I am more in favor to bribe alex to attack cesar, then we can join alex and take Rome with Piramids from cesar and waste bouth of there armies. Cesar was building military peacefully for some time.
Every one can bribe Alex, that why I stick a bunch of LB to nearest to him city.
I am in favor to bribe him ourself agains Cesar.
I would try to milt Masta out of money by selling him resources. We obtaining more and more resources and soon will be able to use them to milk Masta economically to support OUR research.
Yes, I think the best plan will be:
Start Alex-Cesar war
Do trades for Guild and Banking.
Revolt to Nationalism/slavery/Orgonised religion. May be Merkantenilism, as we will loose Cesar Open borders.
Whipe infrustructure, especially Markets and temples.
Research Gunpowder
Draft Muskets, even with help of Culture slider why building infrustructure.
After Cesar commit his forces declare on him ourself or by Alex request.
Take Rome and other near by cities.
If will be ambicious plan, but may be it is featheble.
But I am not a ruler right now, I can dream
Start Alex-Cesar war
Do trades for Guild and Banking.
Revolt to Nationalism/slavery/Orgonised religion. May be Merkantenilism, as we will loose Cesar Open borders.
Whipe infrustructure, especially Markets and temples.
Research Gunpowder
Draft Muskets, even with help of Culture slider why building infrustructure.
After Cesar commit his forces declare on him ourself or by Alex request.
Take Rome and other near by cities.
If will be ambicious plan, but may be it is featheble.
But I am not a ruler right now, I can dream
I wouldn't worry too much about MM space launch, we are larger than he is, will expand more, and outtech him easily once we get into representation.
Caesar isn't proving to be any use to us at all because we can't seem to get relations above cautious. I think I'm inclined to agree with Mutineer about bribing Alex to attack Caesar. Would really like to finish Liz though, we are paying 25 gpt troop maintenance with 1 catapult...
My research choice would be Military tradition, no one is really close to rifling but Caesar has gunpowder and may come up soon with grenadiers himself. Will play later hopefully - waiting for comments
Caesar isn't proving to be any use to us at all because we can't seem to get relations above cautious. I think I'm inclined to agree with Mutineer about bribing Alex to attack Caesar. Would really like to finish Liz though, we are paying 25 gpt troop maintenance with 1 catapult...
My research choice would be Military tradition, no one is really close to rifling but Caesar has gunpowder and may come up soon with grenadiers himself. Will play later hopefully - waiting for comments
Well we have a stack, it is good enogth for Liz, but for Cesar it needed some cover agains Knights. He has a lot of knight, so, some Pikes or Muskets are advisable if we will go after him.
To produce Cavalery we will still need gunpowder, so I think Gunpowder first is compalsory anyway.
To produce Cavalery we will still need gunpowder, so I think Gunpowder first is compalsory anyway.
Attachments
Missed the stack, thanks. Will attack Elizabeth with it when the peace treaty is up.
Yeah, gunpowder needs to go first but I think it's considerably better to have Cavalry than grenadiers against knights. Muskets don't really counter knights either.
Bribing Alex will cost nationalism, will hold off on this for a bit so we can get Taj Mahal, and hopefully get economics or something decent from MM. The timing isn't great right now anyway, Alex would pull us into the war before we have our advanced units.
Yeah, gunpowder needs to go first but I think it's considerably better to have Cavalry than grenadiers against knights. Muskets don't really counter knights either.
Bribing Alex will cost nationalism, will hold off on this for a bit so we can get Taj Mahal, and hopefully get economics or something decent from MM. The timing isn't great right now anyway, Alex would pull us into the war before we have our advanced units.
1300 AD (0) - Elizabeth: Liberalism <-> Guilds
1310 AD (1) - MM: Liberalism <-> Banking + 620 gold. Elizabeth spawned a great engineer. Fired a couple of obsolete warriors and an archer. Build cultural buildings and Catapults
1320 AD (2) - Nottingham in revolt (to Rome)
1340 AD (4) - Gunpowder in, on to Military Tradition. Revolt as Mutineer suggested: Nationhood, Slavery, Org Rel. We save 8 gpt but research on military tradition is down by one turn. Draft some muskets.
1350 AD (5) - Nationalism and liberalism disappeared off the list of things we can trade to MM. Therefore I go to Alex and offer him Liberalism + Banking + Gunpowder to declare on Caesar, he throws in his 80 gold to seal the deal.
1360 AD (6) - Argh, how long does this stupid peace treaty with Elizabeth last?
1380 AD (8) - Great engineer spawned (Seville) Seems a waste to use him on the half finisihed Taj Mahal, so I won't. We could use him for, say, West Point later.
At this point I notice we forgot to build Heroic Epic. Barcelona would be our best production city if we give its mines back once the Taj Mahal is finished and make Hamburg into a specialist city. I think we should do that, and have Munich be our future ironworks site as it has a river for health and intact forests which can be milled.
Liz peace treaty expires and I invade her.
1390 AD (9) - Start Globe Theatre in Nottingham (it's all farms.) Liz suicides 2 cats at our big stack near Hastings.
1400 AD (10) - Liz sends more troops from London in a futile effort to save Hastings. English cat retreats. English cat dies. English crossbow dies to our longbow. English cat dies to mace.
Start heroic epic in Barcelona, park engineer there.
Kill the retreated cat. Bombard Hastings witih 4 of our own accuracy cats reducing defence to 0. Cat retreats. Cat suicides. Melee troops clean up city with no losses, and a HA pillages a village.
Moved in 2 LB from york in case Liz tries anything with her boats; York is temporarily unhappy.
London still has 6 longbow, 3 mace, 2 pike, and 3 cats in it, but with Alex and Caesar busy we can move some reinforcements over.
Military tradition due in 2 turns. MM just discovered constitution and JC printing press.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Mutineer_NC2_AD-1400.Civ4SavedGame
1310 AD (1) - MM: Liberalism <-> Banking + 620 gold. Elizabeth spawned a great engineer. Fired a couple of obsolete warriors and an archer. Build cultural buildings and Catapults
1320 AD (2) - Nottingham in revolt (to Rome)
1340 AD (4) - Gunpowder in, on to Military Tradition. Revolt as Mutineer suggested: Nationhood, Slavery, Org Rel. We save 8 gpt but research on military tradition is down by one turn. Draft some muskets.
1350 AD (5) - Nationalism and liberalism disappeared off the list of things we can trade to MM. Therefore I go to Alex and offer him Liberalism + Banking + Gunpowder to declare on Caesar, he throws in his 80 gold to seal the deal.
1360 AD (6) - Argh, how long does this stupid peace treaty with Elizabeth last?
1380 AD (8) - Great engineer spawned (Seville) Seems a waste to use him on the half finisihed Taj Mahal, so I won't. We could use him for, say, West Point later.
At this point I notice we forgot to build Heroic Epic. Barcelona would be our best production city if we give its mines back once the Taj Mahal is finished and make Hamburg into a specialist city. I think we should do that, and have Munich be our future ironworks site as it has a river for health and intact forests which can be milled.
Liz peace treaty expires and I invade her.
1390 AD (9) - Start Globe Theatre in Nottingham (it's all farms.) Liz suicides 2 cats at our big stack near Hastings.
1400 AD (10) - Liz sends more troops from London in a futile effort to save Hastings. English cat retreats. English cat dies. English crossbow dies to our longbow. English cat dies to mace.
Start heroic epic in Barcelona, park engineer there.
Kill the retreated cat. Bombard Hastings witih 4 of our own accuracy cats reducing defence to 0. Cat retreats. Cat suicides. Melee troops clean up city with no losses, and a HA pillages a village.
Moved in 2 LB from york in case Liz tries anything with her boats; York is temporarily unhappy.
London still has 6 longbow, 3 mace, 2 pike, and 3 cats in it, but with Alex and Caesar busy we can move some reinforcements over.
Military tradition due in 2 turns. MM just discovered constitution and JC printing press.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Mutineer_NC2_AD-1400.Civ4SavedGame
ThERat
Deity
save
Pre-Turn
whip temple in Alemanni, we need to fight off the culture pressure there
1. 1410AD
pillage some tiles for around 40gold
move stack next to London, let's see how Lizzy reacts
2. 1420AD
as expected, Lizzy is stupid enough to attack and we go 5:1 losing a sword
we get Mil Trad
go for chemistry next
there are still 11 defenders in London, we need to wait for more units while bombarding this turn
trade Mil Trad for economics and 160gold to MM, revolt to free market and research drops by 1 turn
3. 1430AD
this time London only attacked with 1 cat that retreats
time to attack though it might be bloody
bomb defenses to zero, then get cats to attack, retreat 2 of them lose another one
then defeat 12 units, lose 1 sword in the process and
4. 1440AD
we meet Cyrus, who is completely backwards (doesn't even have calendar)
move stack towards Berlin, we want to get rid of them as soon as possible
5. 1450AD
Alemanni wins the tiles back from Knossos
6. 1460AD
stupid as Lizzy is, she shifts out units from Berlin
bomb Berlin to 0%, suicide 1 cat. lose 4 units taking the city
before that plunder 2 cottages
Lizzy is no more
on to caesar, isn't it? start shiffting units over to Rome
7. 1470AD
we get the Taj Mahal and start our GA, dropping chemistry to 2 turns
8. 1480AD
Barca finishes the HE and starts Cav
9. 1490AD
we get chemistry, switch off research to upgrade our city raider maces
Hastings is finally online as well, whip a court sonce city starves
sell Caesar education, for 330gold since we attack him soon enough and need the money for upgrades
upgrade 4 maces to grenadiers
10. 1500AD
grocer in Mardid shoots up income, go for a bank there
upgrade 2 more maces, I'd say we are more than ready for war now
next player can have fun here, we have a big stack in the south with some more cavs north
Nottingham could whip the GT for 4 pop now, up to next player
MM does not have chemistry, thus went for steel, but did not invest any beaker yet
our stack
Pre-Turn
whip temple in Alemanni, we need to fight off the culture pressure there
1. 1410AD
pillage some tiles for around 40gold
move stack next to London, let's see how Lizzy reacts
2. 1420AD
as expected, Lizzy is stupid enough to attack and we go 5:1 losing a sword
we get Mil Trad
go for chemistry next
there are still 11 defenders in London, we need to wait for more units while bombarding this turn
trade Mil Trad for economics and 160gold to MM, revolt to free market and research drops by 1 turn
3. 1430AD
this time London only attacked with 1 cat that retreats
time to attack though it might be bloody
bomb defenses to zero, then get cats to attack, retreat 2 of them
lose another onethen defeat 12 units, lose 1 sword in the process and
4. 1440AD
we meet Cyrus, who is completely backwards (doesn't even have calendar)
move stack towards Berlin, we want to get rid of them as soon as possible
5. 1450AD
Alemanni wins the tiles back from Knossos
6. 1460AD
stupid as Lizzy is, she shifts out units from Berlin
bomb Berlin to 0%, suicide 1 cat. lose 4 units taking the city
before that plunder 2 cottages
Lizzy is no more
on to caesar, isn't it? start shiffting units over to Rome
7. 1470AD
we get the Taj Mahal and start our GA, dropping chemistry to 2 turns
8. 1480AD
Barca finishes the HE and starts Cav
9. 1490AD
we get chemistry, switch off research to upgrade our city raider maces
Hastings is finally online as well, whip a court sonce city starves
sell Caesar education, for 330gold since we attack him soon enough and need the money for upgrades
upgrade 4 maces to grenadiers
10. 1500AD
grocer in Mardid shoots up income, go for a bank there
upgrade 2 more maces, I'd say we are more than ready for war now
next player can have fun here, we have a big stack in the south with some more cavs north
Nottingham could whip the GT for 4 pop now, up to next player
MM does not have chemistry, thus went for steel, but did not invest any beaker yet
our stack
excellent turn TheRat, we hardly lost anything.
I agree we want to attack Rome ASAP before he gets any decent military tech. Pyramids and Spiral Minaret should make us unstoppable. Throwing a few things up for discussion:
1) Barcelona (HE city)
Suggest firing the scientists and take control of these 3 mines back from Hamburg, now that Hamburg is no longer building anything important.
We have an engineer there but west point isn't enabled yet, we do have a 16 xp sword in our big stack.
2) Prophet
We need one for Hindu shrine, we could temporarily change the specialists at Madrid to increase prophet chance. If we don't get it as our 5th GP, we need to hire enough priests at York to get one as 6th.
3) Other national wonders we haven't built
National epic - London? Lots of food and production there plus a GE source in hanging gardens. Hamburg would be another choice but its GP pool is already polluted with an artist source in Taj.
Hermitage - Cologne and culture push the borders out a bit for a future war?
Oxford - Not important. We don't have any particularly good science city really, astronomy will obsolete our colossus at some point in the not too distant future.
I agree we want to attack Rome ASAP before he gets any decent military tech. Pyramids and Spiral Minaret should make us unstoppable. Throwing a few things up for discussion:
1) Barcelona (HE city)
Suggest firing the scientists and take control of these 3 mines back from Hamburg, now that Hamburg is no longer building anything important.
We have an engineer there but west point isn't enabled yet, we do have a 16 xp sword in our big stack.
2) Prophet
We need one for Hindu shrine, we could temporarily change the specialists at Madrid to increase prophet chance. If we don't get it as our 5th GP, we need to hire enough priests at York to get one as 6th.
3) Other national wonders we haven't built
National epic - London? Lots of food and production there plus a GE source in hanging gardens. Hamburg would be another choice but its GP pool is already polluted with an artist source in Taj.
Hermitage - Cologne and culture push the borders out a bit for a future war?
Oxford - Not important. We don't have any particularly good science city really, astronomy will obsolete our colossus at some point in the not too distant future.
1500 AD (0)
Two down, four to go.
Why are we building the Globe Theater in Nottingham? The city only has 1 food bonus and has to cede tiles to the ex-German city and (eventually) Rome, so it won't run a lot of specialists??? Leave it for now but in this type of game it should be paired with either Oxford or Wall Street in the highest possible food city. The usual combination with the National Epic isn't as useful since we'll be generating GP points in every city.
Mixed bag of builds so we'll stay in OR.
Wall Street (eventually) in London, the Hindu Shrine will be the most valuable of our three. (Now, Mansa has a city with two shrines, I think ...
)
War starts in 4 turns, at Rome. That way Nottingham won't flip (which is the only reason I can surmise for the GT build).
Extort World Map from Mansa. Then give him ours to make it a wash diplomatically, but we gained a lot of map info for free. 
1505 AD (1)
We've mined four hills our cities can't work.
We do understand that resources won't "pop" on tiles that aren't worked, don't we. 
Oh well, we should eventually use at least of a couple of those tiles.
Hey, Greece has Cavs too!
Stop the GT build in Nottingham, this has to be re-thought. National Epic in Rome? There are three wonders there and a lot of irrigable terrain ...
1510 AD (2)
Alex makes peace with Caesar. pffft!!
1515 AD (3)
Make it five unusable hills mined.
1520 AD (4)
Everyone is present and accounted for, it's go time!
Then notice that Caesar has Rifles.
Minor delay, minor delay ...
1525 AD (5)
Kill a Cat on defense, but Caesar pillages a corn tile. Then lose a Cav and have to use a Pike to smite the offending Knight. JC really doesn't have much of an offensive force. I wonder how that happened??
1530 AD (6)
Right on cue, we get another Great Engineer instead of a Prophet at Madrid. York configured with 4 Priests, now running a 95% Prophet chance.
1535 AD (7)
Kill 6 units on the IT impaling themselves against our SOD at Rome, then lose a Grenadier and a suicide Cat to capture the city. Got 204 gold, the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame, and the Pyramids along with killing a Prophet. Why can't you capture GP ...
1540 AD (8)
Burn Arretium (that pimple on the ass-end of our territory) because it was founded on a cow.
It may or may not be worthwhile to re-build on the desert tile N of the cow, but since we already have the Incense it probably isn't worth the maintenance cost.
1545 AD (9)
I vote for Globe Theater/Wall Street in London. It can run +14 fpt (pre-Biology) and still have >20 hpt when using all of its tiles.
1550 AD (10)
And then it ends again ... Caesar pillaged a couple of tiles and lost a couple of Knights. Having Hinduism in all of his cities really takes the guesswork out of his forces.
Cumae falls in two turns, then we can head north to wipe JC out. We should decide whether to kill him off this war, or extort a tech and wipe him out in 10 turns. I think it's kind of cheesy to take the tech knowing we would re-declare immediately when we were allowed to do so.
That stack will be healed on the IT and can finish the city on the 2nd turn.
There are two settlers in production. One is intended for the grassland 2 W of the cow that is west of Madrid. No real plan for the other one, but we have a number of tiles inside our cultural boundaries that we can't work.
Two down, four to go.
Why are we building the Globe Theater in Nottingham? The city only has 1 food bonus and has to cede tiles to the ex-German city and (eventually) Rome, so it won't run a lot of specialists??? Leave it for now but in this type of game it should be paired with either Oxford or Wall Street in the highest possible food city. The usual combination with the National Epic isn't as useful since we'll be generating GP points in every city.
Mixed bag of builds so we'll stay in OR.
Wall Street (eventually) in London, the Hindu Shrine will be the most valuable of our three. (Now, Mansa has a city with two shrines, I think ...
)War starts in 4 turns, at Rome. That way Nottingham won't flip (which is the only reason I can surmise for the GT build).
Extort World Map from Mansa.
Then give him ours to make it a wash diplomatically, but we gained a lot of map info for free. 1505 AD (1)
We've mined four hills our cities can't work.
We do understand that resources won't "pop" on tiles that aren't worked, don't we. Oh well, we should eventually use at least of a couple of those tiles.Hey, Greece has Cavs too!
Stop the GT build in Nottingham, this has to be re-thought. National Epic in Rome? There are three wonders there and a lot of irrigable terrain ...
1510 AD (2)
Alex makes peace with Caesar. pffft!!
1515 AD (3)
Make it five unusable hills mined.
1520 AD (4)
Everyone is present and accounted for, it's go time!
Then notice that Caesar has Rifles.
Minor delay, minor delay ...1525 AD (5)
Kill a Cat on defense, but Caesar pillages a corn tile. Then lose a Cav and have to use a Pike to smite the offending Knight. JC really doesn't have much of an offensive force. I wonder how that happened??
1530 AD (6)
Right on cue, we get another Great Engineer instead of a Prophet at Madrid. York configured with 4 Priests, now running a 95% Prophet chance.
1535 AD (7)
Kill 6 units on the IT impaling themselves against our SOD at Rome, then lose a Grenadier and a suicide Cat to capture the city. Got 204 gold, the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame, and the Pyramids along with killing a Prophet. Why can't you capture GP ...
1540 AD (8)
Burn Arretium (that pimple on the ass-end of our territory) because it was founded on a cow.
It may or may not be worthwhile to re-build on the desert tile N of the cow, but since we already have the Incense it probably isn't worth the maintenance cost.1545 AD (9)
I vote for Globe Theater/Wall Street in London. It can run +14 fpt (pre-Biology) and still have >20 hpt when using all of its tiles.
1550 AD (10)
And then it ends again ... Caesar pillaged a couple of tiles and lost a couple of Knights. Having Hinduism in all of his cities really takes the guesswork out of his forces.
Cumae falls in two turns, then we can head north to wipe JC out. We should decide whether to kill him off this war, or extort a tech and wipe him out in 10 turns. I think it's kind of cheesy to take the tech knowing we would re-declare immediately when we were allowed to do so.
That stack will be healed on the IT and can finish the city on the 2nd turn.
There are two settlers in production. One is intended for the grassland 2 W of the cow that is west of Madrid. No real plan for the other one, but we have a number of tiles inside our cultural boundaries that we can't work.
We must have different playing styles I guess. I decided to build Globe theatre in Nottingham so we can draft infinite numbers of units there post-biology. IMO, the main point of globe theatre is not to grow cities ultra-large, it's to abuse slavery and drafting in a city that has many farms and few other production options. London will be using some of its food surplus to run mines anyway, and the 2 overlapped seafood should be used by Berlin and Hastings.
National epic is probably irrelevant this late in the game, to be honest.
I would also cancel the settlers. I don't think new cities will pay off before the end of the game at this point. We are capturing multiple size 12+ AI cities anyway.
Vote to wipe Caesar out completely and not extort tech, and just go for domination.
National epic is probably irrelevant this late in the game, to be honest.
I would also cancel the settlers. I don't think new cities will pay off before the end of the game at this point. We are capturing multiple size 12+ AI cities anyway.
Vote to wipe Caesar out completely and not extort tech, and just go for domination.
ThERat
Deity
I agree with uberfish's plans. That's why I didn't cancel; the GT in Nottingham.
I also suggest to not wait for acid, he seems busy with his gf. Muti, just go ahead and play so we can keep this game rolling.
I also suggest to not wait for acid, he seems busy with his gf. Muti, just go ahead and play so we can keep this game rolling.
T_McC - Cesar did not had mach of offence because we bribed Alex to declare on Cesar.
Position looking good.
Revolted to Republic/Merkantenilism.
Well, continue to attack Cesar.
Took 3 his cities.
Traded chemistry for Printing press with Mansa.
Build Iron work in London, best shield city.
Everything was going smowly untill on turn 8 Mansa decided to declare on as.
He drop big stack of cavalry and cats at border city.
Forced me set research to 0, sell paper to cyrus for 180 and upgrade some trops.
Traded Chemistry to Alex for war with Masta.
Did local draft and some military whipes. Most of his stack die killing bunch of drafted muskets, but we hold.
WE could loose one of taked Cesar cities because of luck of reinforsments.
WE in position to take an other cesar city.
I think we should revolt to Pacifism or theocracy/Policae state, as war wareness start to hit and we builded most of ifrastructure and more cities now building military.
I am not sure should we make temporal peace with Rome to concentrate on Masta, leeve for next ruler to decided.
Masta decided to make thinks interesting for as, I think Cesar bribed him.
Position looking good.
Revolted to Republic/Merkantenilism.
Well, continue to attack Cesar.
Took 3 his cities.
Traded chemistry for Printing press with Mansa.
Build Iron work in London, best shield city.
Everything was going smowly untill on turn 8 Mansa decided to declare on as.
He drop big stack of cavalry and cats at border city.
Forced me set research to 0, sell paper to cyrus for 180 and upgrade some trops.
Traded Chemistry to Alex for war with Masta.
Did local draft and some military whipes. Most of his stack die killing bunch of drafted muskets, but we hold.
WE could loose one of taked Cesar cities because of luck of reinforsments.
WE in position to take an other cesar city.
I think we should revolt to Pacifism or theocracy/Policae state, as war wareness start to hit and we builded most of ifrastructure and more cities now building military.
I am not sure should we make temporal peace with Rome to concentrate on Masta, leeve for next ruler to decided.
Masta decided to make thinks interesting for as, I think Cesar bribed him.
Attachments
I am really not sure what to do.
IN 2 turn we may take an other Cesar city, but we might loose Pisae next turn.
Rome is barelly defended and pisae did not resieve planed reinforsments because they went to defend agains Masta.
WE need rifles, but we are hitting WFUBTA limit, so I am afraid we would have to research it ourself. Problem is, we are not making any money right now even on 0 research because of war wareness.
Darn Masta, I look on power graph and he declared on as the moment his powergraph overcome our's. Hmm...
IN 2 turn we may take an other Cesar city, but we might loose Pisae next turn.
Rome is barelly defended and pisae did not resieve planed reinforsments because they went to defend agains Masta.
WE need rifles, but we are hitting WFUBTA limit, so I am afraid we would have to research it ourself. Problem is, we are not making any money right now even on 0 research because of war wareness.
Darn Masta, I look on power graph and he declared on as the moment his powergraph overcome our's. Hmm...
It's Saturday, so I will play quickly.
Why did we trade MM military tradition anyway Probably doesn't make a difference as he'd just have attacked us with rifles instead. Good defending there from Mutineer.
1600 AD (0) - Hmm. Pisae is clearly lost next turn. Ask Caesar if he will give us replacable parts for 10 turns peace, answer is no, the AI isn't that stupid.
Signed a ceasefire with Caesar for two main reasons: Firstly, his economy is crippled and temporary peace will allow us to turn our full attention to the tech leader. Spiral Minaret was the other big factor influencing this decision, as it's generating cash from our temples and so on, and we can build more cheap temples to get cash.
Hired specialists to sort our econ out, RP in 4. I decided NOT to draft any more muskets as they are crap now and we should have rifling by the end of my turns.
Hamburg is outracing York to the next GP, and I can't do anything to stop it unfortunately because it has Forbidden palace and Taj generating GPP even if I whip it and fire all the specialists.
1605 AD (1) - MM attacks, losing a cat but killing our cav in Alemanni. Our muskets arrive and kill the rest of his stuff. Revolted us into theocracy. Hamburg spawned a GS who offers to help us research scientific method, sounds good so I sleep him in Hamburg for now.
1610 AD (2) - Kill a couple of harrassing rifles from MM.
1620 AD (4) - Cyrus comes offering open borders, accept for now to improve relations for future trading. He has astronomy available for trade. Traded maps with Cyrus for 50 gold. the MM front has quietened down a bit, just trading a couple of muskets for his rifles. RP in, set research on rifling. All the computer players except Cyrus have it already so it's only 6 turns. Start putting up lumbermills in all cities with intact forests, and banks for Wall street.
1625 AD (5) - Begin offensive operations against MM as the troops from the Roman front arrive. Built a couple of missionaries, we can't convert Alex because he is in theocracy but they'll be useful for MM captured cities. Put York into temporary starvation to run 6 priests and get the prophet faster.
MM builds the Islamic shrine.
1635 AD (7) - Roman borders expand at Ligurian putting Pisae into revolt, but we still get Spiral Minaret cash. Whip some banks.
We teach MM a lesson for sneak attacking us.
Alex has been "helping" by pillaging improvements, to be fair he killed several enemy units on this front. We need to destroy some cottages there which popped into our cultural borders when we took the city.
1640 AD (8) - I assume MM paid Alex off, because they sign peace. Alex must be making a major profit as a mercenary this game. It wouldn't surprise me too much if someone bribed him to attack us next, we should try and keep him busy attacking others if we can give away non-military techs for it. Advance on Gao with a large stack, start forming up for a 2nd stack in Awdaghost
Oops, why am I training grenadiers/cavalry in Barcelona when I can take advantage of West Point to train CR3 cannons? Start cannons there.
1645 AD (9) - York pops its prophet, and I immediately fire all the priests and whip it for a bank.
1650 AD (10) - Rifling completes, begin drafting. Finished our 6 banks and try to build Wall Street in London - oh yeah, forgot it requires corporation. Never mind for now, Biology is more important. Prophet builds Hindu shrine in London.
I go round and tweak specialist allocation again, typical high food city runs 1 engineer 2 scientists 2 merchants now. Oxford is probably not worth going out of our way for, as our research is extremely spread out and we don't have any particularly strong science cities.
Moved our main stack up to Gao and pillaged another town, it's nice having cavalry for this.
Set research on Scientific Method. We have a scientist available in Hamburg who can research over half of it. Cyrus is also willing to trade us Astronomy which will cut the research time a bit more as a prerequisite, although it costs us some cash in the short term from the loss of Colossus. I leave these decisions to the next player.
This game is fun, the AI sneak attacks which we have to scramble to defend make things a lot more interesting.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Mutineer_NC2_AD-1650.Civ4SavedGame
Why did we trade MM military tradition anyway
Probably doesn't make a difference as he'd just have attacked us with rifles instead. Good defending there from Mutineer.1600 AD (0) - Hmm. Pisae is clearly lost next turn. Ask Caesar if he will give us replacable parts for 10 turns peace, answer is no, the AI isn't that stupid.
Signed a ceasefire with Caesar for two main reasons: Firstly, his economy is crippled and temporary peace will allow us to turn our full attention to the tech leader. Spiral Minaret was the other big factor influencing this decision, as it's generating cash from our temples and so on, and we can build more cheap temples to get cash.
Hired specialists to sort our econ out, RP in 4. I decided NOT to draft any more muskets as they are crap now and we should have rifling by the end of my turns.
Hamburg is outracing York to the next GP, and I can't do anything to stop it unfortunately because it has Forbidden palace and Taj generating GPP even if I whip it and fire all the specialists.
1605 AD (1) - MM attacks, losing a cat but killing our cav in Alemanni. Our muskets arrive and kill the rest of his stuff. Revolted us into theocracy. Hamburg spawned a GS who offers to help us research scientific method, sounds good so I sleep him in Hamburg for now.
1610 AD (2) - Kill a couple of harrassing rifles from MM.
1620 AD (4) - Cyrus comes offering open borders, accept for now to improve relations for future trading. He has astronomy available for trade. Traded maps with Cyrus for 50 gold. the MM front has quietened down a bit, just trading a couple of muskets for his rifles. RP in, set research on rifling. All the computer players except Cyrus have it already so it's only 6 turns. Start putting up lumbermills in all cities with intact forests, and banks for Wall street.
1625 AD (5) - Begin offensive operations against MM as the troops from the Roman front arrive. Built a couple of missionaries, we can't convert Alex because he is in theocracy but they'll be useful for MM captured cities. Put York into temporary starvation to run 6 priests and get the prophet faster.
MM builds the Islamic shrine.
1635 AD (7) - Roman borders expand at Ligurian putting Pisae into revolt, but we still get Spiral Minaret cash. Whip some banks.
We teach MM a lesson for sneak attacking us.
Alex has been "helping" by pillaging improvements, to be fair he killed several enemy units on this front. We need to destroy some cottages there which popped into our cultural borders when we took the city.
1640 AD (8) - I assume MM paid Alex off, because they sign peace. Alex must be making a major profit as a mercenary this game. It wouldn't surprise me too much if someone bribed him to attack us next, we should try and keep him busy attacking others if we can give away non-military techs for it. Advance on Gao with a large stack, start forming up for a 2nd stack in Awdaghost
Oops, why am I training grenadiers/cavalry in Barcelona when I can take advantage of West Point to train CR3 cannons? Start cannons there.
1645 AD (9) - York pops its prophet, and I immediately fire all the priests and whip it for a bank.
1650 AD (10) - Rifling completes, begin drafting. Finished our 6 banks and try to build Wall Street in London - oh yeah, forgot it requires corporation. Never mind for now, Biology is more important. Prophet builds Hindu shrine in London.
I go round and tweak specialist allocation again, typical high food city runs 1 engineer 2 scientists 2 merchants now. Oxford is probably not worth going out of our way for, as our research is extremely spread out and we don't have any particularly strong science cities.
Moved our main stack up to Gao and pillaged another town, it's nice having cavalry for this.
Set research on Scientific Method. We have a scientist available in Hamburg who can research over half of it. Cyrus is also willing to trade us Astronomy which will cut the research time a bit more as a prerequisite, although it costs us some cash in the short term from the loss of Colossus. I leave these decisions to the next player.
This game is fun, the AI sneak attacks which we have to scramble to defend make things a lot more interesting.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/Mutineer_NC2_AD-1650.Civ4SavedGame
Had a longer post 
, but uberfish played already ...
Biology or Communism after Sci Method? I suspect we're doing alright on distance maintenance and could go for faster growth first. Not sure what the GS from Physics would research, whether we could get a near-free tech by going there first. (He should research Biology, so I would lean to Physics next (requires Astronomy) to deny the AI the free Scientist.)
Of course we don't have a super-science city, we aren't generating any trade. Oxford goes in whichever coastal city has the most food to run the most scientists. I tried a non-cottage Emperor game and my Oxford city pulled ~300 beakers/turn (thanks to ~12 scientists and Representation). That's why I wanted to put Wall Street/Globe Theater in London. Post-Biology the city could be ~size 24 and run at least 7 Merchants + a Shrine. That should have been worth ~100 gpt at 0% taxes without having to do anything special to keep the city happy.
Alemanni may be a candidate for Oxford/GT due to having all of that grassland (+ the ability to build a Harbor for trade routes). I think Berlin encroaches too much on London to do this properly.
As far as using the GT to abuse whipping: That's unnecessary in this game due to the variant restrictions. All of our cities will have sufficient food surplus to whip with impunity (or have so much raw production to make whipping unnecessary). (And reading between the lines of the Aztec UB, the whipping model will be changed in Warlords. It will likely be n unhappy people for 10 turns if you whip n people to complete the project. The Aztecs will only have n/2 unhappies/whip.)
I feel for drafting it's the other side of the same coin: Yes, the GT city can absorb all of the unhappiness to be drafted repeatedly (this effect probably stops at Rifles as anything more advanced requires too many people to draft repeatedly from the same city), but our other cities should have so much excess food that whipping a military could be more productive due to the greater strength of the units and the lesser unhappiness incurred.
In a non-variant game the whip/draft city is one of the two typical uses for the GT, the other being the GT/Natl Epic combo for GP generation, because most of the otherwise high-food cities are configured for max trade/cottages and don't have the excess food available to whip or run specialists. We really have the opposite situation here, where every city should have excess food and ample whip/specialist opportunities.
I figure the best use of the GT in our situation is if one city can clearly grow bigger than any other and you want to allow it to reach maximum size without having to either run Hereditary Rule and pile military into it, or run a higher lux tax for that single city. The best possible case scenario is a city that is coastal (for trade routes/Harbor) and has a maximum of irrigable grassland. I can't open the save right now, but it looks like Alemanni has 5 coast, 1 Dye, 1 Plains, 1 Plains Cow and 12 Grassland tiles if it is allowed to have every tile it can reach. I count 68 food available, so maybe a max size of 29-30 including health effects (and thus about 12 Scientists as we wouldn't work the coastal tiles if the next person costs 3 food instead of 2), and trade routes of a city size 45 . Now, actually letting the city grow that large ...
Why cancel the Settlers? I'm figuring any city that can reach size 6 and run 3 specialists pays for itself and then some. Figure it runs 3 Merchants (9 gpt, 9 bpt under Representation) and generates 5-6 trade through the city center and three trade routes. That's profitable even without accouting for the additional unit support. And while additional cities increase the # of cities maintenance, we should be able to build 4-6 of these cities for each increment of # of cities.
, but uberfish played already ...Biology or Communism after Sci Method? I suspect we're doing alright on distance maintenance and could go for faster growth first. Not sure what the GS from Physics would research, whether we could get a near-free tech by going there first. (He should research Biology, so I would lean to Physics next (requires Astronomy) to deny the AI the free Scientist.)
Of course we don't have a super-science city, we aren't generating any trade. Oxford goes in whichever coastal city has the most food to run the most scientists. I tried a non-cottage Emperor game and my Oxford city pulled ~300 beakers/turn (thanks to ~12 scientists and Representation). That's why I wanted to put Wall Street/Globe Theater in London. Post-Biology the city could be ~size 24 and run at least 7 Merchants + a Shrine. That should have been worth ~100 gpt at 0% taxes without having to do anything special to keep the city happy.
Alemanni may be a candidate for Oxford/GT due to having all of that grassland (+ the ability to build a Harbor for trade routes). I think Berlin encroaches too much on London to do this properly.
As far as using the GT to abuse whipping: That's unnecessary in this game due to the variant restrictions. All of our cities will have sufficient food surplus to whip with impunity (or have so much raw production to make whipping unnecessary). (And reading between the lines of the Aztec UB, the whipping model will be changed in Warlords. It will likely be n unhappy people for 10 turns if you whip n people to complete the project. The Aztecs will only have n/2 unhappies/whip.)
I feel for drafting it's the other side of the same coin: Yes, the GT city can absorb all of the unhappiness to be drafted repeatedly (this effect probably stops at Rifles as anything more advanced requires too many people to draft repeatedly from the same city), but our other cities should have so much excess food that whipping a military could be more productive due to the greater strength of the units and the lesser unhappiness incurred.
In a non-variant game the whip/draft city is one of the two typical uses for the GT, the other being the GT/Natl Epic combo for GP generation, because most of the otherwise high-food cities are configured for max trade/cottages and don't have the excess food available to whip or run specialists. We really have the opposite situation here, where every city should have excess food and ample whip/specialist opportunities.
I figure the best use of the GT in our situation is if one city can clearly grow bigger than any other and you want to allow it to reach maximum size without having to either run Hereditary Rule and pile military into it, or run a higher lux tax for that single city. The best possible case scenario is a city that is coastal (for trade routes/Harbor) and has a maximum of irrigable grassland. I can't open the save right now, but it looks like Alemanni has 5 coast, 1 Dye, 1 Plains, 1 Plains Cow and 12 Grassland tiles if it is allowed to have every tile it can reach. I count 68 food available, so maybe a max size of 29-30 including health effects (and thus about 12 Scientists as we wouldn't work the coastal tiles if the next person costs 3 food instead of 2), and trade routes of a city size 45
. Now, actually letting the city grow that large ...Why cancel the Settlers? I'm figuring any city that can reach size 6 and run 3 specialists pays for itself and then some. Figure it runs 3 Merchants (9 gpt, 9 bpt under Representation) and generates 5-6 trade through the city center and three trade routes. That's profitable even without accouting for the additional unit support. And while additional cities increase the # of cities maintenance, we should be able to build 4-6 of these cities for each increment of # of cities.
It is true you could use Globe to make a high population city, but I don't think size 24+ cities are that worthwhile due to health problems and the length of time it takes to grow the city that big (Plus making all the necessary improvements which would necessitate whipping.) It requires us to run Caste System which we might not actually want to do. More importantly, by the time we could set this up the game is over anyway.
I avoid the pairing of Globe with National Epic unless I'm specifically trying to generate artists, say for a cultural victory. I find the GP pollution from two artist sources too irritating.
Globe theatre as draft centre seems a lot more suited to the current game. It arrived at the sweet spot for drafting (riflemen) and lets that one city produce as many riflemen as several others could, freeing other cities to build cannons, grenadiers or buildings.
My argument for not settling any filler cities is similar. It's a question of short term against long term payoff. New cities cause our empire-wide maintenance to go up immediately (we have 20+ cities and the incremental costs keep rising). They don't break even until they hit size 6 and either run caste system (which is a pain as it prevents us whipping courthouses and theatres in newly conquered cities) or whip some infrastructure to enable specialists (which slows growth.) Thus they would actually be slowing us down getting to biology/assembly line which are the two techs that ensure victory.
I avoid the pairing of Globe with National Epic unless I'm specifically trying to generate artists, say for a cultural victory. I find the GP pollution from two artist sources too irritating.
Globe theatre as draft centre seems a lot more suited to the current game. It arrived at the sweet spot for drafting (riflemen) and lets that one city produce as many riflemen as several others could, freeing other cities to build cannons, grenadiers or buildings.
My argument for not settling any filler cities is similar. It's a question of short term against long term payoff. New cities cause our empire-wide maintenance to go up immediately (we have 20+ cities and the incremental costs keep rising). They don't break even until they hit size 6 and either run caste system (which is a pain as it prevents us whipping courthouses and theatres in newly conquered cities) or whip some infrastructure to enable specialists (which slows growth.) Thus they would actually be slowing us down getting to biology/assembly line which are the two techs that ensure victory.
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