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ISIL conquers Mosul, Iraq's second largest city!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jun 10, 2014.

  1. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Howdy

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    A lot goes into making democracy works. Iraq is arguably a more highly educated society than, say, India or Mali, yet democracy failed to take hold. On the flip side, there are examples of highly educated democracies that fail (the Weimar Republic, say, or less seriously the French Fourth Republic).

    Also hi kiwitt
     
  2. r16

    r16 not deity

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    the crisis in Iraq has been averted . The Kurds have been given Kerkük and Maliki Goverment gets to keep N.Iraq within an Iraq they "nominally" control . Until the next crisis . A Selefi blitzkrieg ? Yeah , sure got to be .

    afterall there are "suggestions" that the Shia Goverment in Baghdad has been actively encouraging the Sunni of Iraq to fight in Syria , so that they could be killed over there . Also kill enough Syrians so that the weakened Alawite management could be supplanted in time . They are indeed heretics for trying to reach an agreement , mend bridges , with Turkey anyhow .

    don't call it funny ; as it's actually well known that at the height of Gezi events the goverment generals let it heard that they were not allied with the seperatists ; they were tricking the fools so that they could be killed in Syria , instead of the kinda "obvious" business of creating another N.Iraq from which the wire fences would soon be unable to stop infiltrations . (Smuggling through the Syrian border being a long running legend , with never ever been curtailed and so on .) Yeah , the goverment generals were actually all patriots !

    america's influence gets everywhere , it seems . Supposedly a British / Russian consortium has bought the first N.Iraqi oil shipment . A declaration of no such thing is the first thing ; an apology to the Maliki Goverment would be awesomely nice . Even if he's still an American stoogee ...

    it's amazing that there are still Reading Comprehension issues in 2014 . One single signature on the target folders is enough to be sent the American way . And if you think "he" won't sign , you better ask for some wisdom from the underlings who has Fox-2'ed people .

    or maybe not . Aren't all Turks are lying fools ?
     
  3. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Both democracies and non-democracies follow a general rule of stability which can get very, very low. Weimar Germany and Post-Saddam Iraq both lacked a powerful institution that could keep them together, respectively the Imperial Army and the Ba'ath Party. The WWII allies arguably implanted a new institution in West-Germany after forceful Denazification.
     
  4. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    It hasn't really effected things here much yet. I'm just worried the security will be more of a hassle when going through Kirkuk.
     
  5. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    I must say, Mr innonimatu, your post is spectacularly unhelpful.

    The Iraqi and Syrian states owe their existence to a carve-up of the Ottoman empire following WW1. Unless I'm misinformed, in which case I'm sure you can put me right.

    Their borders owe more to the convenience of the British and French, than any considerations of ethnic, or religious divisions.

    I'd say we're still seeing some adjustments going on in the Middle East as a result of this. (Again you will be able to put me right.)

    Where you get the idea that Syria was rather stable and liberal, and without any religious problems, I've not a clue. That seems to rather ignore the history of the place, don't you think?

    The situation in Libya is possibly more complex. It was an Italian colony wasn't it? And former colonies do seem to have problems. I wonder why that is.

    And it's wealth was entirely built on oil - in fact it was the 5th prosperous nation of Africa. Yet Gaddafi squandered a very great deal on armaments. And something mysteriously referred to as the Great Man-made River Project. (But ignore this. It was probably just a tactic to circumvent sanctions.)

    Yet the turmoil in Libya came as a result of the Arab Spring, I'd say. Rather than any active foreign intervention.

    Still, maybe the Arab Spring was deliberately fomented by the West. In an attempt to create more failed states, perhaps?

    Would you say so? Do forgive my ignorance on such subjects. I'm very much a learner, in all things.
     
  6. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    The US government and the Military-Industrial Complex.
     
  7. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    Just where in the hell do they get the funding they need to conquer that much land? Or are they just really good fighters?

    It is as if they want somebody to get into the Middle East again.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    ^The immortals are the Persian warrior elite.
     
  9. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    I don't think it's so much that they're good fighters so much as not meeting concerted opposition. I very much doubt they'll take Baghdad.
     
  10. Sanguivorant

    Sanguivorant Submitter

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    If they are not meeting opposition, then I suppose that they are receiving support from the people? But then that is not true if so many people fled the city.

    I mean really, these guys have nothing but rifles and pick-up trucks. They have no tanks, aircraft or industry. Is it really that difficult to eliminate them?
     
  11. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

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    I don't see how the Deutsches Heer could be said to have been the thing keeping the Kaiserreich stable? Just consider for a moment that the Armée de Terre was proportionally much larger and yet France, every bit as militaristic as Germany, was even less stable.

    This is incorrect. The borders of Syria and Iraq follow Ottoman Borders. Iraq, for example, is comprised of three Ottoman era Vilayets, or provinces, Mosul, Baghdad and Basra which were grouped together for administrative purposes under the Ottomans. Prior to being split into three in 1864, Iraq was all part of Baghdad Eyalet and had been governed like that since the Ottomans took it in the 1530s. So the contention that the British and French just drew lines on a map is nonsense.

    Syria's only had one civil war since independence in 1948. It had some coups and an abortive Islamist uprising in the late 70s and early 80s, ending with the massacre of Hamma. That's more than can be said for a lot of countries of the same age, I guess. So yeah. I think its fair to characterise the country as being generally speaking stable.

    Interestingly, only two of those had anything to do with religion. But I'm hesitant to attribute either to religion. The Brothers rising owes more to the two groups actively trying to kill each other than Hafiz's faith, especially because the spat long predates Alawite influence in the party.

    It's also quite liberal by regional standards. Syrian state television seems to take a lot of pride in having really attractive female reporters on air. It also had for a long time the second best nightlife in the region after Lebanon.its also important to remember that Syria is probably the least Islamic state in the immediate region.

    ISIS are insane. Even AQ thinks they're extreme. So you can imagine what the average Iraqi Sunni might think of them, especially given that those same Iraqi Sunnis were instrumental in murdering AQ the first time around.
     
  12. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    I made it to Erbil without any problems. There was little traffic on the road actually and no increased security. Only one checkpoint asked for my passport and searched the trunk.
     
  13. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    I always get Sunnits and Shiits mixed up but the one which is the minority of the two in Iraq and which apparently has been consistently been marginalized by the current president are of the same faith as Isis? Well Isis got this special crazy wahabism going on but they belong both to the same general group I believe. And with that in mind I read about the rumor that Isis struck a deal with locals. Apparently the Iraqi army is systematically divided along those lines of faith. However I also read that Baghdad would be furiously defended for there are people of the faith concentrated who benefit from the marginalization of the President.
    Would in any case also explain why the USA demands from the President to quit the marginalization and incorporate all groups.
    I also heard some "expert" say that many Iraqis may join Isis now simply to be able to feed their families.

    Regarding where they got all that money to begin with: Apparantly not only Saudi-Arabia, but also Egypt during Mursi and even Turkey supported them to get rid of Assad. Though Turkey now changed its mind after the recent hostage situation and all.
     
  14. NovaKart

    NovaKart شێری گەورە

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    Shia are the majority and historically have been more marginalized but now they have more control and the Sunni feel more marginalized.
     
  15. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Why is anybody surprised that the Sunni in Syria and Iraq don't like it that the Shia are in control? That this is particularly true in Iraq where they were forced from power by the US invading and occupying their country under false pretenses? That in the predominately Sunni parts of both countries it is quite easy for them to assume control? That many conservatives automatically assume it must be due to the al-Qaeda?

    This was practically inevitable after the second Gulf War. What is surprising is that it took this long.
     
  16. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    I know I shouldn't be surprised, yet I can not stop to be surprised how you never stop being so condescending
    Er on topic:
    Why? Because Isis doesn't appear particular attractive even if your government is horrendous.
    Because it seems like asking "Why is anybody surprised that given the choice between being slapped in the face and slapped in the dick people will want to be slapped in the dick"? But then I am not there in their shoes, of course.
     
  17. nc-1701

    nc-1701 bombombedum

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    I think there are three clear reasons for this.
    1) We severely underestimate the depth of the ethnic/religious tensions we see here. A bad government made up of "your people" is preferable to a good government made up of "others".
    2) Due to our position in the West and some level of bias in the news we assume that the bad guys are truly evil. While they are certainly against Western Liberal ideas they perhaps don't seem as bad in the culture of these areas.
    3) The "good guys" i.e. the Iraqi government aren't nearly as good as we think they are, not just from massive corruption but other things. I imagine many civilians might rationally choose to support these radical groups.

    I'm by no means saying ISIS/ISIL is better than the Iraqi government, but clearly from many people's perspectives they are. I think something similar explains why Boko Haram can operate effectively in Nigeria despite Westerners being appalled. They have a lot of local support because the situation is harder than we give it credit for.
     
  18. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    As said I am not in their shoes, I have no idea how things present themselves. All I got is media vilification. So oyu may have a point. On other hand, all those refugees tell a different story.
    My previous post was more crafted as a response to Forma's notion that it all was so bleeding obvious and predictable. So I wanted to point out form what POV it wasn't so.
    Though on Boko Haram I read that a large problem is the corruption of the political elite, where apparently some profit from Boko Haram. Saying: Not so much a matter of popular will as unwillingness of the authorities to act on such a will. Though yes, they must also get local support. Though due to sympathy or terror? I don't know
     
  19. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Attempting to discuss me instead of the issues is certainly one way to simply deny the obvious. :rotfl:

    I know many did. But for the US government and the so-called "coalition" to do so was nothing but sheer incompetence combined with intentional deceit.

    How many times does it take for the US to meddle in this region before it becomes clear what the implications are? How long are we going to ignore that this group and others are being funded by the Saudis and other wealthy Sunnis? That even the US gave them support against Syria?

    "This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." GWB

    "People say, how can I help on this war against terror? How can I fight evil? You can do so by mentoring a child; by going into a shut-in's house and say I love you." GWB

     
  20. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Chieftain

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    Judging from the map, isn't the Christian Assyrian population in this territory that ISIS controls?

    If that is the case, and these guys are more fundamentalist than fricken Al-Qaeda, that doesn't bode well to that minority group. :(
     

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