"Islam is violent! Just read the Koran to see for yourself!"

[HannibalBarka]

Erm, yes? That's kind of obvious.

Well it is not if there is a reason for the killing. The US waged more wars than say Costa Rica and thus killed more people, they went to war because they had reasons to do so not because Americans are more violent than Costa-Rican.

However, that has limited relevance here- culture would equate to how religion is interpreted, not it's inherent qualities, and it's quite true to say that Islam is more widely interpreted to be pro-violence than Christianity is.

Well that is time and region dependent thus it has nothing to do with the inherent qualities as you say. Columbia, a christian nation, is definetly more violent than Morocco or Bahrain.

 

[aronnax]

Can you prove this? No you can't and no one can, it's all just a blind leap of faith religious people take. It's like deciding to jump off a cliff thinking that god will save you because you pray to it every sunday. Not gonna happen.

Okay your atheism is now a little bit annoying.

Let me state the fact i belong to no religion

Okay, you just told me, that every person who has a religion is a big fool.

Right, grow a little respect for other people please.......

 

[Squonk]

please read my post, aronnax.
Also, in the times of crusades muslims also fought holy wars. In fact, christians learned that from muslims. Muslims were also killing apostates or heretics. Convert-or-die missions - but of course. Persecution of religious minorities - with pleasure (though the situation was almost good as start (except for the massacre and expulsions in Yathrib), it was deteriorating with every century).
Everybody was doing this sort of stuff history. Jews also, when they were in power. The question is why there are many more examples of muslims than christians that still would like to do such stuff. Why You have to go back into Middle Ages to find such behaviour.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Maybe if you check the conditions of where the people who still do "such stuff" live you'd have your answer.

Do you really believe that when the roles where reversed religion wise (Western world = mainly muslim, Eastern = mainly Christians) but all other factors would remain the same we would see any different behaviour?

The main reason is not the religion in question, but the conditions and political setup of the country/area they live in.

 

[Squonk]

Well it is not if there is a reason for the killing. The US waged more wars than say Costa Rica and thus killed more people, they went to war because they had reasons to do so not because Americans are more violent than Costa-Rican.



Well that is time and region dependent thus it has nothing to do with the inherent qualities as you say. Columbia, a christian nation, is definetly more violent than Morocco or Bahrain.

The civil war in Columbia is due to marxism, an anti-christian ideology.
Is Morocco peaceful? It occupies another country (Western Sahara), it demands territories of yet another state (Ceuta, Melilla and this tiny island), it at least had bad relationships with Algeria...
Bahrain...
Well, bigger and stronger nations have more possibilities of being violent. You don't know what would Bahrainians do if they were an empire

 

[warpus]

IMO a lot of it has to do with Arab tribal customs.. moreso than anything inherent in Islam.

 

[Squonk]

Maybe if you check the conditions of where the people who still do "such stuff" live you'd have your answer.

Do you really believe that when the roles where reversed religion wise (Western world = mainly muslim, Eastern = mainly Christians) but all other factors would remain the same we would see any different behaviour?

The main reason is not the religion in question, but the conditions and political setup of the country/area they live in.

Bah, it's up to them if they are successful or not. Also, there are many rich muslim countries, and many poor christian and non-monotheist ones.
And somehow large part, if not a majority, of muslim terrorists in the west are well-educated people of middle class. Was Ibn Ladin a pauper? Was Zawahiri?
Is Mongolia a factory of religious fundamentalism? Moldova? Angola?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wasn't talking about the country's wealth.

 

[aronnax]

please read my post, aronnax.
Also, in the times of crusades muslims also fought holy wars. In fact, christians learned that from muslims. Muslims were also killing apostates or heretics. Convert-or-die missions - but of course. Persecution of religious minorities - with pleasure (though the situation was almost good as start (except for the massacre and expulsions in Yathrib), it was deteriorating with every century).
Everybody was doing this sort of stuff history. Jews also, when they were in power. The question is why there are many more examples of muslims than christians that still would like to do such stuff. Why You have to go back into Middle Ages to find such behaviour.

I understand your post. Im just trying to mock the other guy. We basically have this person who says Islam is violent because we got a 100 so people out of 1.2 billion muslims that blow themselves up in the name of religion. Im responding with the stupid things people has done in the name of Christianity, though i agree i should have picked a more modern one. Basically, the two monothetisc religion arent violent. What the Bible says what the Quran says, they arent excatly telling people to go around murdering people and both preach non aggresion and peace and both beilievers arent running around with axes. If they are not all doing violence, they are not promoting Violence! Sheesh! And whats with this negative view of Islam i detect in some people's post!

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, if you compare the two sets of Scripture, the Koran is more violent. I mean, it's kinda obvious.

It becomes a serious problem when people use Scripture as justification for hurting people, too.

 

[aronnax]

Well, if you compare the two sets of Scripture, the Koran is more violent. I mean, it's kinda obvious.

It becomes a serious problem when people use Scripture as justification for hurting people, too.

Okay fine I agree the Quran is obviously more violent but it does not promotes violence like the Bible.

People are abusing its words. I dont think its religion thats causing this extreamism its something else that is making people abuse the words of God.

 

[HannibalBarka]

The civil war in Columbia is due to marxism, an anti-christian ideology.

why does violent ideologies like marxism tend to sprout in Christian lands, maybe because Christians are more ready and receptive for violence

Is Morocco peaceful? It occupies another country (Western Sahara), it demands territories of yet another state (Ceuta, Melilla and this tiny island), it at least had bad relationships with Algeria...

Well even with all those problem, there are much less violence in Morocco than in Columbia, being muslims must be the reason why Moroccan remain cool when Columbia, with "better neighbours" manage to be very violent. Columbian's religion must be the cause ;-)

Bahrain...
Well, bigger and stronger nations have more possibilities of being violent. You don't know what would Bahrainians do if they were an empire

So it all comes down to what I was saying above ie geopolitical reasons

 

[Mirc]

The comparison between violence in the Bible and in Al-Qur'an is wrong for a couple of reasons.
First of all, for christians, the true holy book is New Testament. While christians do not treat Old Testament in a way that muslims treat the Bible, it is not as important for them as the New one.
For christians, the main person that should be taken example of is Jesus. For muslims - Muhammad.
Jesus did chase the merchants out of the temple etc, but in general was a calm guy. Forcible conversions, political use of religion, holy wars, killing apostates, etc it was all present in christianity, but they were introduced into it hundreds of years after Christ. In islam, they were present since higrah, they are connected with the person who created islam - Muhammad.
Now I don't want to say he's a bad guy. In his own times he was probably one of the more enlightened rulers. He did some wrong - but it was "normal" in his times. But some of the things he did can hardly be seen as good today.
Christianity can try to go back to the times of Christ. But isn't it a cognitive dissonance to hear that Muhammad is a great prophet and a wonderful man,
and at the same time to think that expulsions, slaughters, wars, assassinations, forcible conversions, destruction of temples of another religions etc are wrong? And these are the things Muhammad and the earliest muslims did. I guess most people don't think about it. Some will get to the point times have changed etc. But there always be some thinking that these deeds are OK as long as they are done in the name of God. Because thinking they are completely wrong would imply that Muhammad has done wrong things in the name of God, and would undermine islam.

Secondly,
for muslims, Al-Qur'an is truely word of God, existing since the beginning etc while in christianity, holy scriptures are INSPIRED by God. That's a huge difference, because it allows them to be read in a historical context and in the context of personality of the people writing them.

Quoted For Truth!!

 

[Phlegmak]

Okay fine I agree the Quran is obviously more violent but it does not promotes violence like the Bible.

People are abusing its words. I dont think its religion thats causing this extreamism its something else that is making people abuse the words of God.

No, people aren't abusing the words of the holy books if the holy books actually promote violence. It's obviously a problem because there are parts of both holy books that explicitly say, "I am god and I order you to kill X". So, even though the majority of religious people don't follow such an evil command, there will always be people who do.

 

[BaneBlade]

I understand your post. Im just trying to mock the other guy. We basically have this person who says Islam is violent because we got a 100 so people out of 1.2 billion muslims that blow themselves up in the name of religion. Im responding with the stupid things people has done in the name of Christianity, though i agree i should have picked a more modern one. Basically, the two monothetisc religion arent violent. What the Bible says what the Quran says, they arent excatly telling people to go around murdering people and both preach non aggresion and peace and both beilievers arent running around with axes. If they are not all doing violence, they are not promoting Violence! Sheesh! And whats with this negative view of Islam i detect in some people's post!

You're an appeaser, and obviously without knowledge.

There are 150 sentences in the Koran promoting/demanding violence and supression versus unbelievers.

Over 80% of the muslims polled IN THE UK are in favour of Shariah law.
SHARIAH LAW! You know, women are dirty, unbelievers are "Untermenschen" and thiefs and woman who have sex with whom they want should be hacked to pieces.

as for your 100 or so terrorists, http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/,
notice the counter on the left-hand side.

And then tell me how many large scale muslim demonstrations against terrorism you have seen since 9/11 ?

As for stupid and unnecessary crusade comparisons:
a) When did the last happen?
b) The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

Im responding with the stupid things people has done in the name of Christianity, though i agree i should have picked a more modern one.

Like the 5 or 7 people killed by the crazy abortionist fundies in the last 35 years?
And then tell me how many christians doesn't react with "It's a shame" or "These people are psychotic" and instead start arguing how they are suppressed by imperialists, democrats, americans and the jewish world conspiracy?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

BaneBlade, enjoy:

Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.
BBC News, 11 July, 2003

Al-Azhar condemns suicide attacks
Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.
BBC News, 11 July, 2003

Memo to Osama bin Laden:
"I would rather live in America under Ashcroft and Bush at their worst, than in any “Islamic state” established by ignorant, intolerant and murderous punks like you and Mullah Omar at their best."
A thought-provoking, controversial, pre-war article by Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D., February 12, 2003

Prominent Muslim scholar Dr. Youssef Al-Qaradawi has condemned Al-Qaeda for their fuel tanker suicide bombing of a centuries-old Jewish synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba in April 2002.

"It is time that we Muslims acknowledge that the freedoms we enjoy in the US are more desirable to us than superficial solidarity with the Muslim World. If you disagree, then prove it by packing your bags and going to whichever Muslim country you identify with."
Dr. M. A. Muqtedar Khan

Hamza Yusuf: Yes, absolutely. It's an obligation for Muslims to root them [terrorists] out. And I think it is a jihad now for the Muslims in the Muslim country to rid themselves of this element.
CBS's 60 Minutes, September 30, 2001

"Who has the greatest duty to stop violence committed by Muslims against innocent non-Muslims in the name of Islam? The answer, obviously, is Muslims."
Ingrid Mattson, Vice President, Islamic Society of North America

"Our nation must be mindful that there are thousands of Arab-Americans who live in New York City, who love their flag just as much as [we] do. And we must be mindful that as we seek to win the war, that we treat Arab-Americans and Muslims with the respect they deserve. I know that is your attitudes as well. Certainly the attitude of this government, that we should not hold one who is a Muslim responsible for an act of terror. We will hold those who are responsible for the terrorist acts accountable and those who harbor them."
President George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."
Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001

"The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."
September 27, 2001 - Fatwa, signed by:
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and Sira Countil, Qatar
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council

"Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime."
Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London. Cited in Arab News, September 28, 2001.

"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to praise those who kill innocent people."
Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in the New York Times, September 28, 2001.

"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in."
King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in the Middle East Times, September 28, 2001.

"I'm a Muslim. I've been a Muslim for 20 years. I want the world to know the truth about Islam. I wouldn't be here to represent Islam if it were the way the terrorists make it look...Islam is for peace."
Former World Heavyweight boxing champion, Muhammad Ali, at the telethon benefit concert, September 21, 2001.

"Those terrorists must be reading a completely different Quran than the rest of us. This isn't about Islam. It's about terrorism."
US Marine Corps Captain Aisha Bakkar-Poe.

I could go on for some time.

Over 80% of the muslims polled IN THE UK are in favour of Shariah law

A poll eh? Gee.

A little word of advice, before you accuse people of having no knowledge please make sure you have a little yourself.

edit: By the way, 150,000 muslims demonstrated against Al Quaida in Morocco. It will be a while before your little counter reaches that point.

 

[El_Machinae]

Okay fine I agree the Quran is obviously more violent but it does not promotes violence like the Bible.

People are abusing its words. I dont think its religion thats causing this extreamism its something else that is making people abuse the words of God.

I will happily admit that the people committing the violence are merely selectively reading the Qur'an in order to justify their violence. I've seen it happen with the Bible, and I'm guessing that we could find examples in something like Scientology, too.

In the end, people want safe and comfortable lives, in general - and will interpret their faiths to allow these safe and comfortable lives to continue if possible. There's a period of people's lives (usually in the early-adult stage) where people seek to address social injustices with violence, and those late-teens will use any method of justifying the violence that they care for.

My problem with the Qur'an is that it makes it very hard to appeal to empathy. Other Divine Command structures have a similar problem. If they're hurting people because they think that God wants it, they're not going to stop hurting people out of empathy: because they're willing to override empathy for "God"

 

[BaneBlade]

...........................................

Ziggy maybe you misunderstood my intention:
I'm not saying all muslims are so and so, but that there are widespread and really problematic tendencies.
And that there are alot of examples to the contrary doesn't negate my statement.
Btw, i know some of them in person, like my muslim ex-gf and her family, so don't try to paint me with the one-eye-blind-brush, I'm not, how about you?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm not painting anyone anything. I was replying to the content of your post. And it was a little Lobsided, so I decided to counterbalance it.

That's all.

I'm getting tired of "religion of peace", "religion of violence" crap. It's just a religion, it has it's good sides and bad sides, like any religion in my opinion. And it can be used for good things and abused for bad things like any religion. It doesn't matter wether it happened yesterday or one century ago, the principle is exacly the same.

Islam is not the problem, the people using Islam for political purposes are the problem. Otherwise do you think that if the terrorists where of another religion, for instance christian, they'd be any less prone to be controlled through it? I don't.

 

[Smidlee]

I believe you are missing the fact that Islam is link to these suicide bombing as Baneblade pointed out. You see you can't condemn Osama bin Laden actions with the Koran nor show he is less of a Muslims nor less of a follower of Islam. The Bible even in the OT condemns someone taking matters in his own hand. A good example is Moses who murdered that Egyptian guard thinking he was doing God's bidding. The scriptures clearly show Moses wasn't. It was 40 years latter when God called Moses to lead the children out of Egypt and even then he didn't act alone.
It's true that most Muslims are peaceful yet it's hard to make the claim these suicide bombers are in the wrong and not followers of the Koran.