Israel and USA versus Iran and Russia

[red_elk]

Russia can defeat the imperialist corrupt materialistic pig-dog weaklings of the U$A and I$rael alone. We don't need no Iran to do it

Can Russia defeat wretched goys and muslim pigs too?

 

[Leoreth]

Russia can barely handle Chechnia.

And I thought it worked reasonably well for them since they have appointed a remorseless autocrat as its president.

 

[Winner]

See what I did there? There are no interests to be served, just an irrational fear for another power.

EDIT: Bottomline is that wars are often started because of political pressures that have no rational basis. If you (made yourself) believe a nation is bound to attack you (regardless how bizarre the rationale behind that belief is), you will attack, regardless the purely economic value of (winning) such a war.

I very much doubt Russia would actually consider a shooting conflict with the Americans. Thus, I consider all such articles pretty alarmist and detached from reality.

However, saying that, there is an interesting part:

A further irritant to Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili is the prospect that Russian assault airborne troops, or VDV units, with helicopters could be moved into Georgia's two breakaway provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. These two provinces were taken by the Russian military during the August 2008 Russian-Georgian war. Initially they were declared by Moscow to be independent countries, but now the Kremlin is indicating they may be annexed to Russia.

Similarly, Lt. General Vladimir Shamanov, commander of the VDV, has announced that Russian troops in Armenia will be reinforced by paratroopers, along with attack and transport helicopters.

"The Russian spearhead (from the Transcaucasia region) may be ordered to strike south to prevent the presumed deployment of U.S. bases in Transcaucasia, to link up with the troops in Armenia and take over the South Caucasus energy corridor along which Azeri, Turkmen and other Caspian natural gas and oil may reach European markets," Felgenhauer said.

"By one swift military strike, Russia may ensure control of all the Caucasus and the Caspian states that were its former realm, establishing a fiat accompli the West, too preoccupied with Iran, would not reverse," he said.

"At the same time, a small victorious war would unite the Russian nation behind the Kremlin, allowing it to crush the remnants of the prodemocracy movement 'for fair elections,' and as a final bonus, Russia's military action could perhaps finally destroy the Saakashvili regime."

Putin has made no secret that he despises Saakashvili and with his return to the presidency, he may consider taking out the Georgian president as unfinished business. Just as in 2008, Putin will not have much to worry about if he sends Russian troops into Georgia, since there was muted reaction from the U.S. and the European countries to the Russian invasion and subsequent occupation.

I am much more inclined to believe the Russians might go insane for the sake of old imperialism and re-establish control over their former (Soviet) territories.

 

[Tahuti]

I very much doubt Russia would actually consider a shooting conflict with the Americans. Thus, I consider all such articles pretty alarmist and detached from reality.

US expansionism is indeed more dominant, than say EU, Russian or Chinese expansionism, which are all pretty real too, since among the great powers, none are different in their appetite for expansion safe for their abilities to do so.
And while I agree that such articles are for most part overly alarmist, I wouldn't immediately discredit such as complete either.

I'm not a foreign policy expert or political scientist, nor will I pretend to be, but my 2 cents are that Iran wants to goad Israel into attacking Iran to maintain the Orwellian endless war Iran is waging against the USA and Israel, in order to gain internal legitimacy.
To the point that may be very well possible that the whole Iranian nuclear project is nothing but a ruse for just that goal. And while I think Israel shouldn't bomb Iran - even in the case Iran is actually developing a bomb, because Iran would never, ever use it against Israel - it will be hard to convince Israel otherwise, because (whether you understand it or not) the whole Israeli political scene is built upon military pre-emption, and saying Israel should pursue otherwise - however truthful - is just plain political suicide in Israeli politics.
So tragic the outcome of this may be, these variables in themselves do not lend for actual war between Iran and Israel: Israel destroys an Iranian nuclear reactor (that may be fake), which makes Israelis feel safe but delegitimizes Israel's position in the ME further, just as Iran wants to achieve, after which nothing will happen for a long time.

The real danger lies in that the USA and Russia may (want to) take a hypothetical Israeli-Iranian "war" more seriously than the Israelis or Iranians themselves do, turn this into an actual proxy war by supporting the belligerents, and get eventually get into the fray themselves. The USA doesn't want to yield one inch in its strategic position in the Middle-East, so any slight against Israel (or Saudi-Arabia or Yemen) will put the USA on the edge of war. Similarly, Russia's irrational fear of the West may cause Russia to support anyone who is threatened by the USA, noting that Iran is still considered to join the CSTO (and if Iran joins, Russia will have a legal obligation to go to war against anyone who attacks Iran).

So yes, I'm actually worried. It's a lot of "if's", "but's" and "possibly's" but it is a worst scenario that isn't entirely implausible. A war between Russia and America is pure insanity of the highest order, but then again, most - if not all - wars are.

 

[r16]

Russia can barely handle Chechnia.

they were slow in waking up when the Georgians struck too , that didn't stop them from drinking çay in Stalin's birthplace .

 

[kramerfan86]

Russia and the US arent going to fight each other, Iran is just the latest round of proxy maneuvering that the two have been doing for the last 60-70 years. If Iran gets into a war it will find itself very alone.

 

[Patroklos]

Israel would not need help from the US to keep Russia out of the Middle East. Russia has near zero power projection, and what it does have is a toothless dog and pony show. Besides outright nuking Israel, Russia is impotent to do anything to them of significance in the kinetic military sense.

The US doesn't need to invade Iran to defeat Iran.

 

[Tahuti]

The US doesn't need to invade Iran to defeat Iran.

In many ways, the Iran's Islamic régime is already moribund, even if the US were not involved in the larger picture.

 

[Conspirator]

I have visited Iran for business a couple of times and have friends who live in Iran I regularly talk to. The current escalation of international embargos instigated by America is causing difficulties on the ground for Iranians, with stories of inflation and foreign currency and commodity shortages being recounted to me recently. Of course there is also the added fear of being attacked, accepted as highly likely by those in the Iranian government and intelligence from what I understand.

Previous statements that the Islamic Republic does not need to be invaded to be defeated, in my opinion, are true. The population of Iran are passionately pro-Western, wanting nothing else but to emigrate to our shores and adopt our way of life. They idealize Europe, and America in particular. They're not a very religious people, taking pleasure in drinking alcohol; listening to the hottest pop music or otherwise emulating our tunes with home grown musicians; the newest Hollywood movies are all the craze of course; and walk the streets of Tehran, Shiraz or Isfahan one can glory in the latest fashion fads decked by beautiful, beach blonde, surgically enhanced vixens accompanied by Arnold loving chiselled gym-obsessed hunks. Left to their own devices it is only a matter of time before the Iranians throw out their religiously fanatical leaders, and both Iran and the world will benefit from that in a huge way. Iran should be and can be the Germany of the Middle East - an economical viper (growing, youthful, educated population, vast mineral resources and huge landmass in a strategically important location).

I think that if Israel preemptively attack Iran the results will be counterproductive and potentially disastrous. Imagine being jealous and envious of someone, and then being attacked by them, how would you react? Iranians are a proud and patriotic people, if attacked it could cause a shift in their sentiment to the West - because while they love us, they also love to hate us (as do everyone who isn't from America). Currently, overall, from what I can tell, we (the west) are in their favour, it's best not to allow xenophobic and hypocritical semi-illegal states to f**k that up, say I.

 

[Chiteng]

The choice is stark:

A world where Iran has nuclear weapons
or
A world where Iran does NOT have nuclear weapons.

It is very rare in war, to have such absolute clarity.

If I were Israel, I would use maximum force against Iran, including the use of Tactical Nukes. They dont need US participation to do that.

If Russia decides to nuke me, oh well, Iran would have done the same, in response to
a Russian attack, I would hit ALL the major population centers of the so called Arab Powers. I would certainly hit Iran as hard as I could.

I would not give a damn what happened to the rest of the world, because the rest of the world apparently didnt care what happened to me.

 

[Chiteng]

Israel would not need help from the US to keep Russia out of the Middle East. Russia has near zero power projection, and what it does have is a toothless dog and pony show. Besides outright nuking Israel, Russia is impotent to do anything to them of significance in the kinetic military sense.

The US doesn't need to invade Iran to defeat Iran.

agreed

 

[red_elk]

Israel would not need help from the US to keep Russia out of the Middle East.

There is Russian presence in the Middle East (Syria and Armenia) and Israel can't "keep it out", with or without US help.

 

[Ajidica]

The choice is stark:

A world where Iran has nuclear weapons
or
A world where Iran does NOT have nuclear weapons.

It is very rare in war, to have such absolute clarity.

If I were Israel, I would use maximum force against Iran, including the use of Tactical Nukes. They dont need US participation to do that.

Let us suppose Iran has nuclear weapons, what would an Israeli strike (using tactical nuclear weaponry) against Iranian nuclear installations do? It would give Iran an excuse to retaliate with similar methods and make Israel the clear geopolitical loser. Plus, it would also force Israel to acknowledge they have nuclear weapons and be in a rather unique situation. What with decrying Iran for posesing nuclear weapons and the potential danger while at the same time using nuclear weapons. If the Israeli government has any semblence of reason left, they won't launch a pre-emptive attack on Iran unless the situation has deteriorated so far as for Iran to be setting up it's rockets.
Iran however has no reason to use nuclear weapons if it aquires them. What do they have to gain? Absolutely nothing except the wrath of the world. Furthermore, given the disagreement between the President and the Supreme Leader, the nuclear weapons would have very strong safeguards.

 

[Chiteng]

Let us suppose Iran has nuclear weapons, what would an Israeli strike (using tactical nuclear weaponry) against Iranian nuclear installations do? It would give Iran an excuse to retaliate with similar methods and make Israel the clear geopolitical loser. Plus, it would also force Israel to acknowledge they have nuclear weapons and be in a rather unique situation. What with decrying Iran for posesing nuclear weapons and the potential danger while at the same time using nuclear weapons. If the Israeli government has any semblence of reason left, they won't launch a pre-emptive attack on Iran unless the situation has deteriorated so far as for Iran to be setting up it's rockets.
Iran however has no reason to use nuclear weapons if it aquires them. What do they have to gain? Absolutely nothing except the wrath of the world. Furthermore, given the disagreement between the President and the Supreme Leader, the nuclear weapons would have very strong safeguards.

First, forgive me but you dont know me. I do not accept supposition as fact.
The point would be to prevent Iran from having Nukes. If they already had them, then it would be to destroy Iran as fast as possible, to prevent them from gaining MORE nukes.
The entire purpose of the scenario is to deal with the paradigm I stated.
A world where Iran has Nukes
or
A world where Iran doesnt have nukes.
By destroy Iran, I mean exactly that. Destroy it. Not harm it so it can be resurrected.
In military terms that would mean killing the enemy rather than disarming him.
Unfortunate, but cest la guerre.

A world where Iran has nukes, and is able to get more, unimpaired, is simply not acceptable. It becomes a life and death struggle for survival. Iran knows that, so does Israel.

As I said, in war it is VERY rare to have such absolute clarity.

 

[red_elk]

By destroy Iran, I mean exactly that. Destroy it. Not harm it so it can be resurrected.
In military terms that would mean killing the enemy rather than disarming him.

I was thinking that Persian ayatollahs with their anti-Israeli rants are crazy extremists, but comparing with this they appear as more or less sensible people.

 

[Chiteng]

I was thinking that Persian ayatollahs with their anti-Israeli rants are crazy extremists, but comparing with this they appear as more or less sensible people.

Only because you are not privy to their minds.
You are talking about a culture that executes rape victims.

If the positions were reversed, we would all be dead, or enslaved.

You expect a survivor of a concentration camp to rely upon the good will of such creatures?

Who then is naive?

 

[red_elk]

You are talking about a culture that executes rape victims.

So, Persian culture and its bearers must be wiped out, using tactical nukes. Is that your position?

You expect a survivor of a concentration camp to rely upon the good will of such creatures?

Who are those creatures, Iranians? They are the same people as you.

 

[Chiteng]

So, Persian culture and its bearers must be wiped out, using tactical nukes. Is that your position?


Who are those creatures, Iranians? They are the same people as you.

My position is clearly stated: Iran must not be allowed to obtain nukes.
If the ONLY means to do that, is to destroy them, I will not shy away from that realization.

Fortunately, I dont believe they already have nukes. So I need not adopt such a posture.
I think they can be disarmed.

No I am NOT such a people as they are. I am not dominated by a thirteenth century religion that enslaves women and allows the casual killing of any non-member at will.
I do not agree that a rape victim should be stoned to death.
I am not trying to establish a world wide theocracy.

 

[red_elk]

Ok, so you are islamophobe and hate Iran because their official religion is Islam. Not sure if I have to explain that it's not Iranian culture which "executes rape victims" or that Islam is not about enslaving women, etc. Just wondering, what about Pakistan which already has nuclear weapons - aren't we suppose to be all dead or enslaved already?

 

[Dachs]

No I am NOT such a people as they are. I am not dominated by a thirteenth century religion that enslaves women and allows the casual killing of any non-member at will.
I do not agree that a rape victim should be stoned to death.
I am not trying to establish a world wide theocracy.

Thirteenth...century?