Israel has divine help, I'd love an explanation to the contrary

[GhostWriter16]

Let's face it, the Jewish culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

1. The Jews currently exist, despite the fact that they really shouldn't- I know this statement may sound racist, but if it does, you are misinterpreting it. I'm not talking about morals, I'm talking about history. On average, a culture, after being dispersed across the globe will, on average, last five generations and then be assimilated. These figures are sensible for several reasons. First of all, consider a person who is 99% Italian and 1% Irish (Just random examples.) Will he be culturally affected by the Irish at all? Probably not, assuming he doesn't live in Ireland. If he lives in America (Which has all sorts of cultures) he'll probably act culturally Italian.

Now, my point is also backed up by this question. Where are the Moabites? The Philistines? The Ammonites? The Canaanites? Obviously their nations don't exist anymore, but why are there no, say, American Ammonites? Or Germain Moabites? Or Japanese Philistines? Or French Canaanites? But yet, there are American Jews, Germain Jews, Japanese Jews, French Jews, American Jews, and Jews from almost every country (Probably every country, but I say almost so I don't have to deal with a devil's adovacate saying "Well they aren't on X Tiny Island)

2. Israel has a country. How many nations have lost their country for thousands of years only to get it back? How many? Does Babylon have a country? Well, you could say its called Iraq, but then, Babylon's lost a LOT of its culture, its religion, its belief system, exc., which Israel still has. What about Macedonia? Well, technically they have a TINY country, but nothing like what they used to have. Rome? Well, they don't have nearly what they have. Israel got their country back even though they should not have logically been able to have done so. God's hand is upon them.

3. Israel STILL has a country even after 60 years of being attacked by Muslim nations very commonly. Now, you could argue "America is helping them" which is true, but, how much? Are we helping them that much? No, we're not. We are helping some, but are we recognizing Israel's CAPITAL CITY as theirs? No, we allow the PLO to occupy half of it. Do we invade the countries who invade Israel? We should, but we don't. This small a country should NOT be able to survive this long surrounded by enemies, and yet they do. Its a miracle.

 

[Benefactor]

Well, that all sounds perfectly logical. God did it.

 

[Gangor]

Let's face it, the Jewish culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

1. The Jews currently exist, despite the fact that they really shouldn't- I know this statement may sound racist, but if it does, you are misinterpreting it. I'm not talking about morals, I'm talking about history. On average, a culture, after being dispersed across the globe will, on average, last five generations and then be assimilated. These figures are sensible for several reasons. First of all, consider a person who is 99% Italian and 1% Irish (Just random examples.) Will he be culturally affected by the Irish at all? Probably not, assuming he doesn't live in Ireland. If he lives in America (Which has all sorts of cultures) he'll probably act culturally Italian.

Now, my point is also backed up by this question. Where are the Moabites? The Philistines? The Ammonites? The Canaanites? Obviously their nations don't exist anymore, but why are there no, say, American Ammonites? Or Germain Moabites? Or Japanese Philistines? Or French Canaanites? But yet, there are American Jews, Germain Jews, Japanese Jews, French Jews, American Jews, and Jews from almost every country (Probably every country, but I say almost so I don't have to deal with a devil's adovacate saying "Well they aren't on X Tiny Island)

They have a strong incentive to keep their identity - God's "chosen" people after all.

2. Israel has a country. How many nations have lost their country for thousands of years only to get it back? How many? Does Babylon have a country? Well, you could say its called Iraq, but then, Babylon's lost a LOT of its culture, its religion, its belief system, exc., which Israel still has. What about Macedonia? Well, technically they have a TINY country, but nothing like what they used to have. Rome? Well, they don't have nearly what they have. Israel got their country back even though they should not have logically been able to have done so. God's hand is upon them.

They have a country because the British thought it would be cool to have a devoted ally right next to the Suez canal. Jokes on them, eh?

3. Israel STILL has a country even after 60 years of being attacked by Muslim nations very commonly. Now, you could argue "America is helping them" which is true, but, how much? Are we helping them that much? No, we're not. We are helping some, but are we recognizing Israel's CAPITAL CITY as theirs? No, we allow the PLO to occupy half of it. Do we invade the countries who invade Israel? We should, but we don't. This small a country should NOT be able to survive this long surrounded by enemies, and yet they do. Its a miracle.

The US government is close to divine, but imo is not quite there yet But more seriously the Israelis have been fortunate that the Arabs have suffered in general under corrupt and/or incompetient leaders for much of the last century. It's worth noting that before that they were mostly part of the Ottoman empire, so they don't exactly have any recent history of leadership.

 

[Bill3000]

6 million Jews were massacred 70 years ago and you're claiming that they had divine help? There's plenty of other ethnicities who have been persecuted over the years and still exist, dude, such as the gypsies.

 

[Miles Teg]

Pet Peeve: People seriously need to stop stretching the definition of the word "miracle". In a theological context, it doesn't mean "unlikely event". It certainly doesn't mean "this was a good thing". A miracle is properly defined as something that is literally impossible when viewed inside the framework of the Universe as we know it. To use examples from medicine: It's not a miracle when your cancer goes into remission after a bout of chemotherapy. It's not a miracle if he says that it's unlikely to do so. It's not even a miracle if the cancer goes into remission spontaneously, which is a very rare occurrence. We've observed all of these things before, and they appear to be part of the naturalistic universe, even if we don't know how they work. Now, when you grow back that finger that you accidentally cut off, then you can come and start talking about miracles

Similarly, the continued existence of the Jewish people isn't a miracle. It may or may not be improbably, depending on how you view events. Actually, it reminds me of the old golfball analogy. When a golfball lands on a particular blade of grass, it's not a miracle. The odds of the golfball landing on any particular blade of grass are very low, but it has to land on blade of grass. That's not a miracle. Similarly, the continued existence of a Jewish culture isn't a miracle, despite all the persecution they've gone through. Now, if Hitler had definitely killed off all the Jews, and then they magically appeared in their homes, unperturbed by the fact that they had just been killed, that would have been a miracle, because it would break the laws of cause and effect as we understand them. Nothing in Dom's post rises to that standard I'm afraid.

Yes, I realize that this is only tangentially related to the OP, which is frankly so ridiculously bad that I doubt an interesting discussion can be salvaged from it. The above is my humble attempt.

 

[Arakhor]

Seriously, you have to be joking...

 

[warpus]

Let's face it, the Jewish culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

Actually, it's most likely Jewish time travellers from the 25th century. They have been fighting a temporal war with Muslim time travellers from the 27th century, but are getting funding from Americans from the 29th century, so their time-travelling technology is a bit more advanced than that of the Muslims.

God hasn't gotten involved.. yet

 

[useless]

God loved the Jews so much he allowed them to be killed in the thousands.

 

[BuckyRea]

Armenia has divine help, I'd love an explanation to the contrary

Let's face it, the Armenian culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

1. The Armenians currently exist, despite the fact that they really shouldn't- I know this statement may sound racist, but I used to have an Armenian girlfriend so at least its not prejudice-based racism. Anyway, I'm not talking about morals, not from either Lisa or her total flirt of a sister who I swear I wasn't even looking at. I mean, I was looking, but I wasn't looking looking.

I'm talking about history. The Armenians have been slaughtered, hunted, relocated, conquered, genocided, reconquered, and generally abused by some of the most ruthless societies in the world. Where are the Philistines? Nowhere! They're descendants are all called Palestinians now. It's crazy. Or where are the Gypsies? There used to be English Gypsies, American Gypsies, German Gypsies, Romanian Gypsies. But whenever you go to their website, you see they've been entirely taken over by these "Roma" people.

And don't even get me started on the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Montagnards, or the Songhai. They have no states, so they must be gone. Yet the Armenians, though scattered to America, Turkey, Iran, Russia, and some other places I don't know or care about because I'm an American and it's my right, suddenly got their own sovereign state at some point in history that I don't know or care about because I'm an American and that's my right, too.

Armenians are like a pop-a-mole nationality.

2. Armenia has a country. Only it's not where it used to be! A thousand years ago they were on the Mediterranean coast. Then they were absorbed by the Ottomans and the Russians and the Soviets. Now they're on the Black Sea. What the frizzle is that all about?

3. Armenia STILL has a country even after 20 years of being attacked by a Muslim nation. You'd think some big superpower is helping them out or something. They whole thing is so unlikely, it makes you wonder if anything outside the strict norms of the laws of mathematical probability could ever happen in history. If anyone could cite me of even one instance of against-the-odds outcomes ever happening in the course of human events, it would greatly help me overcome this staggering sense of cognitive dissonance I'm boggled by.

Note: Sarcasm may have entered into the preceding post. If it's not effective sarcasm, please be forgiving, but I'm an American.

 

[BuckyRea]

6 million Jews were massacred 70 years ago and you're claiming that they had divine help? There's plenty of other ethnicities who have been persecuted over the years and still exist, dude, such as the gypsies.

Bill, read the Old Testament. You'd be surprised at all the crap God dumps on his "Chosen" people. Lord, do me a favor and never Chose me in that way!

 

[The Imp]

Let's face it, the Jewish culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

1. The Jews currently exist, despite the fact that they really shouldn't- I know this statement may sound racist, but if it does, you are misinterpreting it. I'm not talking about morals, I'm talking about history. On average, a culture, after being dispersed across the globe will, on average, last five generations and then be assimilated. These figures are sensible for several reasons. First of all, consider a person who is 99% Italian and 1% Irish (Just random examples.) Will he be culturally affected by the Irish at all? Probably not, assuming he doesn't live in Ireland. If he lives in America (Which has all sorts of cultures) he'll probably act culturally Italian.

Now, my point is also backed up by this question. Where are the Moabites? The Philistines? The Ammonites? The Canaanites? Obviously their nations don't exist anymore, but why are there no, say, American Ammonites? Or Germain Moabites? Or Japanese Philistines? Or French Canaanites? But yet, there are American Jews, Germain Jews, Japanese Jews, French Jews, American Jews, and Jews from almost every country (Probably every country, but I say almost so I don't have to deal with a devil's adovacate saying "Well they aren't on X Tiny Island)

2. Israel has a country. How many nations have lost their country for thousands of years only to get it back? How many? Does Babylon have a country? Well, you could say its called Iraq, but then, Babylon's lost a LOT of its culture, its religion, its belief system, exc., which Israel still has. What about Macedonia? Well, technically they have a TINY country, but nothing like what they used to have. Rome? Well, they don't have nearly what they have. Israel got their country back even though they should not have logically been able to have done so. God's hand is upon them.

3. Israel STILL has a country even after 60 years of being attacked by Muslim nations very commonly. Now, you could argue "America is helping them" which is true, but, how much? Are we helping them that much? No, we're not. We are helping some, but are we recognizing Israel's CAPITAL CITY as theirs? No, we allow the PLO to occupy half of it. Do we invade the countries who invade Israel? We should, but we don't. This small a country should NOT be able to survive this long surrounded by enemies, and yet they do. Its a miracle.

... mother of God, you are delusional!!!

Moderator Action: Flaming. Non-discussion content. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[GhostWriter16]

Armenia has divine help, I'd love an explanation to the contrary

Let's face it, the Armenian culture surviving this long is a miracle of some sort. I have no other explanation. I have three reasons why, you can give all the reasons you like why not.

1. The Armenians currently exist, despite the fact that they really shouldn't- I know this statement may sound racist, but I used to have an Armenian girlfriend so at least its not prejudice-based racism. Anyway, I'm not talking about morals, not from either Lisa or her total flirt of a sister who I swear I wasn't even looking at. I mean, I was looking, but I wasn't looking looking.

I'm talking about history. The Armenians have been slaughtered, hunted, relocated, conquered, genocided, reconquered, and generally abused by some of the most ruthless societies in the world. Where are the Philistines? Nowhere! They're descendants are all called Palestinians now. It's crazy. Or where are the Gypsies? There used to be English Gypsies, American Gypsies, German Gypsies, Romanian Gypsies. But whenever you go to their website, you see they've been entirely taken over by these "Roma" people.

And don't even get me started on the Kurds, the Tibetans, the Montagnards, or the Songhai. They have no states, so they must be gone. Yet the Armenians, though scattered to America, Turkey, Iran, Russia, and some other places I don't know or care about because I'm an American and it's my right, suddenly got their own sovereign state at some point in history that I don't know or care about because I'm an American and that's my right, too.

Armenians are like a pop-a-mole nationality.

2. Armenia has a country. Only it's not where it used to be! A thousand years ago they were on the Mediterranean coast. Then they were absorbed by the Ottomans and the Russians and the Soviets. Now they're on the Black Sea. What the frizzle is that all about?

3. Armenia STILL has a country even after 20 years of being attacked by a Muslim nation. You'd think some big superpower is helping them out or something. They whole thing is so unlikely, it makes you wonder if anything outside the strict norms of the laws of mathematical probability could ever happen in history. If anyone could cite me of even one instance of against-the-odds outcomes ever happening in the course of human events, it would greatly help me overcome this staggering sense of cognitive dissonance I'm boggled by.

Note: Sarcasm may have entered into the preceding post. If it's not effective sarcasm, please be forgiving, but I'm an American.

REALLY? America is different though because we have tons of weapons and tanks and, if necessary, enough nukes to obliterate everyone, including ourselves. Israel? We don't know if they have any nukes, they are being attacked by like five nations at once, have no allies in the Middle East, and have a very small country.

Difference.

 

[illram]

Maybe they had Satanic help?

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Miles Teg]

REALLY? America is different though because we have tons of weapons and tanks and, if necessary, enough nukes to obliterate everyone, including ourselves. Israel? We don't know if they have any nukes, they are being attacked by like five nations at once, have no allies in the Middle East, and have a very small country.

Difference.

Hey, I don't like to agree with Dommy, but he's right. With all those nukes Armenia has, I wouldn't want to mess with them either. Very insightful analysis there.

 

[Kozmos]

So a wizard did it.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Pet Peeve: People seriously need to stop stretching the definition of the word "miracle". In a theological context, it doesn't mean "unlikely event". It certainly doesn't mean "this was a good thing". A miracle is properly defined as something that is literally impossible when viewed inside the framework of the Universe as we know it. To use examples from medicine: It's not a miracle when your cancer goes into remission after a bout of chemotherapy. It's not a miracle if he says that it's unlikely to do so. It's not even a miracle if the cancer goes into remission spontaneously, which is a very rare occurrence. We've observed all of these things before, and they appear to be part of the naturalistic universe, even if we don't know how they work. Now, when you grow back that finger that you accidentally cut off, then you can come and start talking about miracles

Similarly, the continued existence of the Jewish people isn't a miracle. It may or may not be improbably, depending on how you view events. Actually, it reminds me of the old golfball analogy. When a golfball lands on a particular blade of grass, it's not a miracle. The odds of the golfball landing on any particular blade of grass are very low, but it has to land on blade of grass. That's not a miracle. Similarly, the continued existence of a Jewish culture isn't a miracle, despite all the persecution they've gone through. Now, if Hitler had definitely killed off all the Jews, and then they magically appeared in their homes, unperturbed by the fact that they had just been killed, that would have been a miracle, because it would break the laws of cause and effect as we understand them. Nothing in Dom's post rises to that standard I'm afraid.

Yes, I realize that this is only tangentially related to the OP, which is frankly so ridiculously bad that I doubt an interesting discussion can be salvaged from it. The above is my humble attempt.

One improbable event? No that's not a miracle I agree there, at least, not unless it was caused divinely. For instance, consider a 12 year old starving child from India with a rifle against a trained US military man with a rifle in a gunfight. The 12 year old winning ONCE may not be a miracle. It could happen by chance. However, consider that same child being required to fight trained US soldiers every day for the next year, and he survives! That would be a miracle because it couldn't happen that many times without divine help.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Hey, I don't like to agree with Dommy, but he's right. With all those nukes Armenia has, I wouldn't want to mess with them either. Very insightful analysis there.

Oh, he said Armenia. Well, in any case, Armenia isn't hated by the WHOLE WORLD so, well.

Also, 6 million Armenians were never killed in a 5 year span of time.

 

[useless]

"God did it" is not even a decent arguing point.

 

[BuckyRea]

REALLY? America is different though because we have tons of weapons and tanks and, if necessary, enough nukes to obliterate everyone, including ourselves. Israel? We don't know if they have any nukes, they are being attacked by like five nations at once, have no allies in the Middle East, and have a very small country.

Difference.

Um, my post was about Armenia, not America. Please read more carefully in the future.

(on the other hand, if you're an American, then maybe you don't have to worry about going after the right country in an argument)


.

 

[Miles Teg]

One improbable event? No that's not a miracle I agree there, at least, not unless it was caused divinely. For instance, consider a 12 year old starving child from India with a rifle against a trained US military man with a rifle in a gunfight. The 12 year old winning ONCE may not be a miracle. It could happen by chance. However, consider that same child being required to fight trained US soldiers every day for the next year, and he survives! That would be a miracle because it couldn't happen that many times without divine help.

No, again, you're misusing the term "miracle' to refer to an event (or series of events) that you feel is improbable. Once you cure yourself of that habit, then you can get people to take you seriously when you create threads on the topics of miracles.

I'm sure there are other people just dying to talk about why calling the continued survival of the Jews an overly improbable event is boneheaded, so I'll leave that to them. I'm mainly concerned with how you mangled a perfectly decent theological term because you wanted to start a thread about your philosemitism.