Israel heading to polls as coalition moves to dissolve parliament

At least politics there still seems to have some meaning, not just a ritual to rubber-stamp the same policies.

Imo, that is a false impression. Just like in almost all other countries, Israel has no organized political formation that wants to seriously challenge the arrangement of wealth in the country (Israel is particularly stratified, with a few dozen families controlling a large percentage of the country's wealth).
 
Imo, that is a false impression. Just like in almost all other countries, Israel has no organized political formation that wants to seriously challenge the arrangement of wealth in the country (Israel is particularly stratified, with a few dozen families controlling a large percentage of the country's wealth).
There have been much to argue about in Israeli society besides economics.
Actually, ecenomics tend to take marginal part in campaigns and in political debates.

Iran, Palestinians, religion and state, inner-jewish racism - all usually take a greater share than housing probelms or taxes.

But that was all true until a few years ago. Since then the one and only topic that is argued about is Bibi.
 
the strongman somehow too good for the West . Insults everyone , hits any answer with charges of treason . But yeah , like somehow much better than the campaign back in the 1990s that claimed it was in tthe Jewish holy book that he was the man to nuke Russia .
 

I'll venture a guess: given the members of the coalition Netanyahu depends on - and it's his freedom at stake, he'll do whatever it takes to keep it together - neither of those two big problems can be solved while he's in power. They can only continue to grow. And then otehr people start to leave...

In this as in so many other foolishness going on around the world, I would rather that all people involved had the integrity and foresight to plan ahead and resolve problems in better ways. But one of the involved groups lacking just one of these things can be enough to spoil that. And unfortunately they're lacking in many places.
 
Imo, that is a false impression. Just like in almost all other countries, Israel has no organized political formation that wants to seriously challenge the arrangement of wealth in the country (Israel is particularly stratified, with a few dozen families controlling a large percentage of the country's wealth).
I was under the impression that votes carried elections not wealth. It is strange that we view ourselves immune to bribes but do not give such charitable views to others.
 
I'm worried. Will Netanyahu be foolish enough tho think a war with Iran is a good idea?

Iran will eventually have nuclear weapons if the iranians want them. They have the industry and ability to build them alone. At this point a confrontation policy only makes things worse in the Middle East, it's far too late for Israel to continue acting as it was used to. Things change, the successful adapt. Netanyahu is old, I doubt he'll adapt...

Israel between the squeeze of the palestinians whose territory it refused to relinquish and the backwards orthodox who are a dead weight has nearly unsolvable internal problems. It can't handle regional wars on top of that. It would only make thinks worse in the whole regions, a regions with so many countries full of problems already.
I’ve never heard the accusation against Jewish culture as a failure to adapt and their history seems replete with examples in which their victimhood was not a failure to adapt but rather to the envy and hatred for their success.

It is not Israel calling for the genocide of the Iranian people despite the fact between the two of them they have long held the power to accomplish such a solution should they wish it. It remains to be seen if such would be the case with Iran but given their rhetoric and ideology the answer would certainly seen to be an clear.

Let us all wish such a question never sees an answer played out in reality.
 
People dramatize with talk of genocide over nuclear weapons too much. Perhaps it's good they do, we don't want to walk into a genocidal war by mistake. But I do not see any happening. I do believe that conventional wars can be fought without escalating to nuclear. We already saw that between nuclear and non-nuclear armed countries, and between nuclear-armed countries.
Incidentally, that is a more immediate and realistic damage than most people realize. Here in Europe where I live I'm happy to stay put on the far western end of it...

Specifically regarding Israel and Iran, the threat is the economic and social damage that a conventional war will do to both countries. Iran would probably survive unmodified, Israel would have its best able jewish population give up and flee, reach breaking point. They know they have a demographic time bomb ticking away. That's how I understand @Absolution's comment. But he should be the one saying what it means.
 
Many of the Jewish and even non-Jewish members of the military I know have told me they would gladly return to their fatherland/religious homeland to fight if needed. I was unaware they had an inverted population pyramid but it would not surprise me given their GDP and high average personal income for the last several decades would be in line with Hans Rosling’s research on birth rates.

Watching the Ukrainian conflict has been nerve racking and I was elated to see China come out warning Putin against the use of LYNW’s. Whether such warning will be respected remains to be seen in what is for Russia an existential threat to their security.
 
People dramatize with talk of genocide over nuclear weapons too much. Perhaps it's good they do, we don't want to walk into a genocidal war by mistake. But I do not see any happening. I do believe that conventional wars can be fought without escalating to nuclear. We already saw that between nuclear and non-nuclear armed countries, and between nuclear-armed countries.
Incidentally, that is a more immediate and realistic damage than most people realize. Here in Europe where I live I'm happy to stay put on the far western end of it...

Specifically regarding Israel and Iran, the threat is the economic and social damage that a conventional war will do to both countries. Iran would probably survive unmodified, Israel would have its best able jewish population give up and flee, reach breaking point. They know they have a demographic time bomb ticking away. That's how I understand @Absolution's comment. But he should be the one saying what it means.
Partly, yes.
I think that it is too far-sighted to speculate that Iran will be involved in the destruction of Israel, as now it does not seem near at all.
In fact, I think that the Islamic Revolution is still way more endagered than the Zionist movement.

My worries are mainly cultural.
The elections themselves are not much more than a heavy reminder of a process that is known to have been happening for some time now, and is still far from being complete.
It is that dumb and primitive people are taking over as the majority culture of Jews in Israel.
I hate them and I don't want to belong to their nation.
A sense of alienation towards even my physical environment has taken over me in the day or two after the results were published. Along with a greater motivation to leave.
A confusion about how I view places that are home to me and in which I grew up. They haven't change. These specific places haven't even changed culturally. But these were gloomy days.
I don't know how it is going to affect my relationship with the state in the long term.
Anyway I didn't prefer to live here most of my upcoming years, but as said before, the motivation to leave grew larger.

And I hear this from many people around me.
Let those dumb and primitive have their own nation without us, let them become just another stupid Middle Eastern country. This is not what we and our past generations have worked hard to build.
There is no reason to lie to ourselves that we should and can live together with them as part of a single nation.

If we want to go into practics, then there is one interesting point which bothers me over the excpected change of governments. It is that during the reign of the recent government, Environmentalism was politicised for the first time. By the opposition, of course.
Good reforms concerning single use plastics were exectued by the current anti-Bibi government.
Haredim (ultra orthodox jews) view these reforms as deliberate attempts to worsen their lifestyle (which for some reason includes great dependency on single-use plastic) by a malicious finance minister. The Haredi political leaders sworn to cancel the reforms, and now they were given the power to do so.
For the first time in my memory, political parties go anti-environmental, and that's only because some environmental reforms were done by their rival government.
I hope it will not create resent towards other issues, most importantly a transition towards more solar energy dependency.
 
Partly, yes.
I think that it is too far-sighted to speculate that Iran will be involved in the destruction of Israel, as now it does not seem near at all.
In fact, I think that the Islamic Revolution is still way more endagered than the Zionist movement.

My worries are mainly cultural.
The elections themselves are not much more than a heavy reminder of a process that is known to have been happening for some time now, and is still far from being complete.
It is that dumb and primitive people are taking over as the majority culture of Jews in Israel.
I hate them and I don't want to belong to their nation.
A sense of alienation towards even my physical environment has taken over me in the day or two after the results were published. Along with a greater motivation to leave.
A confusion about how I view places that are home to me and in which I grew up. They haven't change. These specific places haven't even changed culturally. But these were gloomy days.
I don't know how it is going to affect my relationship with the state in the long term.
Anyway I didn't prefer to live here most of my upcoming years, but as said before, the motivation to leave grew larger.

And I hear this from many people around me.
Let those dumb and primitive have their own nation without us, let them become just another stupid Middle Eastern country. This is not what we and our past generations have worked hard to build.
There is no reason to lie to ourselves that we should and can live together with them as part of a single nation.

If we want to go into practics, then there is one interesting point which bothers me over the excpected change of governments. It is that during the reign of the recent government, Environmentalism was politicised for the first time. By the opposition, of course.
Good reforms concerning single use plastics were exectued by the current anti-Bibi government.
Haredim (ultra orthodox jews) view these reforms as deliberate attempts to worsen their lifestyle (which for some reason includes great dependency on single-use plastic) by a malicious finance minister. The Haredi political leaders sworn to cancel the reforms, and now they were given the power to do so.
For the first time in my memory, political parties go anti-environmental, and that's only because some environmental reforms were done by their rival government.
I hope it will not create resent towards other issues, most importantly a transition towards more solar energy dependency.
Hmmm
 
it is the same exact divide that happens in the US . Trumpers driving the educated young professionals crazy who then start planning to emigrate to Europe , though , say , New Zealand or to some extent Australia are really competitive . The guy is trying to escape from Zionists of the "new" type !
 
it is the same exact divide that happens in the US . Trumpers driving the educated young professionals crazy who then start planning to emigrate to Europe , though , say , New Zealand or to some extent Australia are really competitive . The guy is trying to escape from Zionists of the "new" type !
The difference is that Trumpism doesn't seem like the future. It is a demographic failure.

But the culture that I dislike in Israel is much more prevalent in young people and in newcoming citizens.
As you call it correctly, zionism of a new type.
 
it is a global thing . The latest generations seem to lack "ambition" on a scale that was famous when ı was a kid , when you just had to have a BMW to have succeeded , while today's lot will be proud to take the bus . So , in quite fancy words , they are dumbing the entire customer base for continued sales . While driving those who still remain capable into "centers of excellence" where they will be easier to control , as whole countries become destined for strip mining in all areas of life and thought .
 
The difference is that Trumpism doesn't seem like the future. It is a demographic failure.

But the culture that I dislike in Israel is much more prevalent in young people and in newcoming citizens.
As you call it correctly, zionism of a new type.

Thanks for the explanations. It is a new type but it's also a consequence of that old decision to cling on to the occupied territories. It was a strategic mistake. An arab state, preferably a prosperous one also, would provide an escape valve for Israel's perceived demographic problems, deny both fanatics and power-greedy opportunists their easy rhetoric of being "defenders against the enemy", and at least slow their growth in political power. The best way to attempt to solve the problems.
There was an opportunity, before Rabin's assassination. A few years later Arafat who in any case by then had already been losing control of a unified arab side was also killed. By then I think it became very very difficult to change course.
It may have been 15 years ago that I made this same argument here in the forum, about the two-state solution being the only way to avert some very bad outcome in time. And time ticked on.
 
it is a global thing . The latest generations seem to lack "ambition" on a scale that was famous when ı was a kid , when you just had to have a BMW to have succeeded , while today's lot will be proud to take the bus .
"it is just me? no, the kids must be wrong"
 
Thanks for the explanations. It is a new type but it's also a consequence of that old decision to cling on to the occupied territories. It was a strategic mistake. An arab state, preferably a prosperous one also, would provide an escape valve for Israel's perceived demographic problems, deny both fanatics and power-greedy opportunists their easy rhetoric of being "defenders against the enemy", and at least slow their growth in political power. The best way to attempt to solve the problems.
There was an opportunity, before Rabin's assassination. A few years later Arafat who in any case by then had already been losing control of a unified arab side was also killed. By then I think it became very very difficult to change course.
It may have been 15 years ago that I made this same argument here in the forum, about the two-state solution being the only way to avert some very bad outcome in time. And time ticked on.

Too optimist, I'd say.
I do support giving a try at a two state solution, but I expect that state to fail quickly, possibly to be reoccupied by the Israeli army in a way that reminds south Lebanon of 1985-2000.
I do not for a single moment see any connection between this and the rightwards shift in Israeli political support.

Palestinians and the broad conflict are unheard of in the political debates of the past 4-5 years. Small civilian skirmishes with Arabs in legal Israel or the west bank are much more politicised.
Internal-Jewish racism as well.

In my opinion, if there is any past mistake done by the Israeli government that causes this cultural shift, it is a much older one, by Ben Gurion,
Although I view him as our most inspiring leader, he failed on one thing.
He had an ideal of "inhabiting the wasteland" - setting up zionist settlements in the less inhabited areas of the country. Setting foot, or manifesting detiny kind of thing.
It is a very respected policy by him, and as kids we are taught of it as a good zionist idea.
But - he chose to send there newcoming Jews, thus building up remote communities of less integrated citizens who had a hard time even making a living.
A generation or two later, feelings of disidentification with "good old Israel" europt to what we see now.
These people kept much more "diapora traditions" that the earlier waves of Jewish migration to Israel had thrown away in favour of the then-new "Israeli" (Sabre) ideal.
Values, religion, family structure, political participation - in all of these fields, the later newcommers were not integrated into the existing zionist culture.
 
while an utter failure in life myself , this new generation expects owning everything without the slightest bothering . Conditioned by the internet where insulting is seen as winning makes them less likely to take advice as well . It is global and goes beyond generation gaps . From a guy that takes the bus .
 
Ok boomer :crazyeye:
 
hush , people do not like submarine captains .

(no , it will be proven that am not one , didn't even see one , still not real)
 
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