Israel In BNW?

Should Israel be included as a civ in BNW?


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I am aware that Bethlehem is now in the Palestinian West Bank, but that does not mean Jesus was Palestinian... Jesus was Jewish. Also at the time there was no land called Palestine since the Romans only gave that name to the Judea province after the Jewish revolt which ended in 70 AD, years after Jesus died.

Jesus was Jewish... Yes, a Jew from Palestine.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/303091/Jesus-Christ

You are wrong on your date too. Palestine existed far longer than that as it is mentioned as early as 440 BCE. It is also mentioned in earlier texts of people from that region as early as 1100 BCE.

There are a number of people not comfortable with Jesus being from Palestine, as there are many who do not want to acknowledge that fact. This very subject is one of many reasons Israel would cause too many problems to be included as a Civilization. Why do you think there is so much fighting over it?
 
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BNW will not include Israel because the subject is too much of a political hot potato. For instance what is the Capital of Israel? Would Jerusalem be the capital but if you look on any map the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. This is the kind of question Firaxis is not going to touch with a 10 foot pole.
 
See, that's the difference in our thinking. You are thinking we need to spread the distribution of civilizations around, geographically. I think a civilization should have been important in world history in some way in order to be called a civilization. Where a country appears on the map has no relevance at all to whether it is a civilization, in my opinion. Australia isn't a civilization - why not? There's a big whole on the map that has no representation in Civilization. According to your logic, they should.

For marketing reasons they probably decided they need a South American country, but that doesn't make Brazil a "civilization".

What?
Brazil is one of the most unique and important civilizations nowadays.

Why is America a civilization and Brazil isn't?
America resembles England much more than Brazil resembles Portugal.

Can you say that Mexico is more unique and influential than Brazil?
That's ridiculous.
 
What?
Brazil is one of the most unique and important civilizations nowadays.

It is? Compared to what? Why is it more important than Argentina, or Australia, or Switzerland? And why would you call it a civilization rather than a country?

Why is America a civilization and Brazil isn't?
America resembles England much more than Brazil resembles Portugal.

I can think of two reasons off the top of my head, either one of which would justify calling America a civilization:

1. The Apollo Program. We're the only country that has ever put a man on the moon.

2. Nuclear weapons. We invented them.

What has Brazil done that no other country has done? How have they contributed to the world, in culture, or religion, or science? Or militarily?

Can you say that Mexico is more unique and influential than Brazil?
That's ridiculous.

I didn't say it was more influential, but it's no less influential. What's so special about Brazil? the only think I can think of is that they built the Cristo Redentor, but that's just a statue, it's not an earth-shaking project. I didn't even know what it was called until Civ 5.

I'm not knocking Brazil as a country, I'm just saying it doesn't stand out.
 
Things the American civilization has done...

-Built the Panama canal
-First nation to land humans on a celestial body other than earth (the moon)
-played a major role in WWII
-the New York stock exhange, and New York has a taller denser skyline than any other city in the world
-invented the airplane, internet, television, nuclear fission and fusion, telephone
-first nation to mass produce automobiles
-Hollywood produced movies seen all over the world
-Has 10 active aircraft carriers and plans to build more (the rest of the world combined has 10)
-has approximately 1000 military bases in 150 different countries
-McDonalds, Coca-Cola, IBM, GE, Disney
-The US constitution which was revolutionary at the time, and served as a model for many other countries contitutions
-A fighting, revolutionary spirit that has been part of American culture since before the revolution, is unique to America and isnt quite the same in any other country (hence Americans will NEVER surrender their guns. What was done in the UK and Australia won't work in America) (not trying to troll just explaining the uniqueness of American culture)

The list goes on and on. Some things may be good or bad depending on perspective, and all this is certainly not sustainable. But anyone who thinks that America is not a civilization is kidding themselves.
 
You're wrong, Mrdarklight. The soviets also put a man in the moon less than 2 years after the americans. And the russians were the first ones to put a man in space also. In fact, the Apollo Program was developed by a team whose leader was Von Braun, the former german nazi scientist who invented the V1 and V2 missiles. German technology. But the russians also used german scientists of their own.

Nuclear weapons were invented in your country, but again the project was leaded by german (jew) scientists like Mr. Albert Einstein, a fugitive from the nazis.

The main difference between your country and probably the majority of the others was the economical power you accumulated during the XIX and XX centuries. Just that.

What has Brazil done that no other country has done? How have they contributed to the world, in culture, or religion, or science? Or militarily?

Lets see. I think I can answer that, because I`m brazilian.

The airplane, for example, was not invented by the Wright Brothers as you think. It was invented by a brazilian named Alberto Santos Dummont and presented to the World in 1906, in Paris. The W. Brothers proclaimed themselves the inventors and presented their airplane more than 2 years after Dummont. Only the US recognizes them. No excuses for that. That man also invented, the first dirigible with a gas motor and the clocks attached to the pulse as they are used nowadays.

Here, was invented a much more efficient alternative combustible, during the 70`s, based on alcohol. We didn`t have the luck the americans had to discover gold after their independence. Europeans took almost all of it, and of course it had a lot of influence in our more recent past. We were a colony of exploration as the entire latin America. We pay for it just as the british empire paid the consequences of the world wars. Imagine your country if there was only the escravagist south, and nothing of the free industrial north. Got the point?

Money determines the progress of a nation, undeniably. And, of course, in comparison to you, we are poorer, and less industrialized. But we have our prós too. We are far better than you in diplomacy for example. Doubt of that? Try to find who hates us diplomatically around the world. Also, we have marks known all around the world such as Petrobras, Pelé, InBev, etc. Cultural icons as the Bossa Nova, the Samba…

We are also a country with continental size and that has control of a lot of resources such as potable water, iron, niobium, lots of woods and biodiversity.

Some historical curiosities:

We had, during the XIX century, the third navy among the entire world, during the period Pedro II was the emperor.

We won a war against a government from Paraguay that outnumbered our army in a 4:1 proportion at the same time you were in your Civil War.

We fought the Second World War, with an expressive participation in the italian scenario, and also as a supporter of rubber, gas, iron and military bases for the allies after 1942.

Yes, we had incidents during our history. We had dictators (the last time, they were supported by the U.S.), we have poverty, but I can count a number of countries that also are in the Civ series that have poverty, such as India, Europe during the majority of its history and even your America.

We are not frequently involved in wars. We're not a warmongering country since the XIX century. We had a lot of wars, rebellions and conflicts in our own territory during the last 3 centuries. But we keep if for ourselves. Its our nature. I don't blame. I don't regret that. In fact, I'm a bit proud.

I don`t know if there were better civs to put. People use the word "civilization" because its the name of the game. But if we are too demanding, there won`t be much civs to play.

Think in Bizancio as only a city surrounded by enemies, and in the Statue of Liberty as a ugly dwarven maiden forged around sea. A corthesy from France, as Cristo for us.

Think in Poland as a country that never extended to an empire.

Think in the Zulu as a tribe and nothing more.

How about Ethiopia?

Maybe there are arguments against the choose of Brazil as a nation among the ones playable in BNW. But your arguments are not very good themselves.
 
It is? Compared to what? Why is it more important than Argentina, or Australia, or Switzerland? And why would you call it a civilization rather than a country?



I can think of two reasons off the top of my head, either one of which would justify calling America a civilization:

1. The Apollo Program. We're the only country that has ever put a man on the moon.

2. Nuclear weapons. We invented them.

What has Brazil done that no other country has done? How have they contributed to the world, in culture, or religion, or science? Or militarily?



I didn't say it was more influential, but it's no less influential. What's so special about Brazil? the only think I can think of is that they built the Cristo Redentor, but that's just a statue, it's not an earth-shaking project. I didn't even know what it was called until Civ 5.

I'm not knocking Brazil as a country, I'm just saying it doesn't stand out.

You measure real history in terms of the game.
Are Apollo Program and Nuclear Weapon what makes the Americans a civilization?
It's about culture, language, origin, history, politics, territory, a unique way of life, etc.
You don't have to build wonders in order to be a civilization.

If you want to measure which civilization was "greater" than the other through history, then you can use those arguments. But it is not what makes a them a civilization.
It's true that the American civilization can be considered a greater civilization than the Brazilian one, but it has nothing to do with the Brazilians being a civilization or not.
There are really small civilizations like Kerma or Etruscans which are rightfully not even considered to be included in the game, but it does not mean that they are not a civilization.
They are a civilization, maybe even "more" than America or India, but they are not "great" enough to be included, and that's fine.

So yes, America is a "greater" civilization than Brazil, but Brazil still is a large, unique, and interesting civilization to add.
More than Mexico in my opinion, and I believe that most of the people here think so as well.


EDIT: Eru Ilúvatar, you forgot Capoeira!
 
The Russians did put the first satellite and man in space. And they did land on the moon.

The first airplane flew in North Carolina in 1903, witnesses saw it. This stuff about 1906, maybe that's the first time an international crowd saw an airplane, that does not mean its the first time an airplane flew.

America has economic power, but its more than just that. American culture is very Anglo in many ways (and many other nations since there are immigrants from all over the world.) But American culture is also very unique in many different ways, some of it is good some of it is bad, but its unique nonetheless.
 
Eru Ilúvatar;12355956 said:
You're wrong, Mrdarklight. The soviets also put a man in the moon less than 2 years after the americans.

The Russians did put the first satellite and man in space. And they did land on the moon.

A small correction. Russians never performed a manned moon landing. Only russian spacecrafts and rovers were on the moon.
 
Eru Ilúvatar;12355956 said:
You're wrong, Mrdarklight. The soviets also put a man in the moon less than 2 years after the americans.

Really? What was his name? This is news to me.

Eru Ilúvatar;12355956 said:
And the russians were the first ones to put a man in space also.

I understand that. The Russians are a civilization also.

Eru Ilúvatar;12355956 said:
In fact, the Apollo Program was developed by a team whose leader was Von Braun, the former german nazi scientist who invented the V1 and V2 missiles. German technology. But the russians also used german scientists of their own.

Nuclear weapons were invented in your country, but again the project was leaded by german (jew) scientists like Mr. Albert Einstein, a fugitive from the nazis.

So? A lot of people in America came from other places. Immigration doesn't change that we were the country that accomplished these things. And calling the Saturn "German Technology" is a real stretch. The V2's Germany built never got into space. that's like saying a Toyota is "American technology" because the US was the first to mass produce cars. Rocketry existed before the Germans, though. Probably the first and most important pioneer in modern rocketry was Robert Goddard, an American, who invented liquid-fueled rockets before World War II, in 1914.

Eru Ilúvatar;12355956 said:
The main difference between your country and probably the majority of the others was the economical power you accumulated during the XIX and XX centuries. Just that.

Again, so? Who cares how we got it? I'm not really interested in a "who's better, Brazil or US" pissing match, but I just don't see what Brazil ever did to warrant being called a "civilization" any more than any other country.
 
I agree with American guys. I think same, Brazil doesn't have something unique but America does. anyway, what's done is done, Brazil is playable.
 
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