Israel invades Gaza

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The Arab nations don't give a damn about the Palestinians. They just hate the Israelis more. So they'll talk all day about the Palestinians problems and not do crap.

All the stuff you mentioned just backs this up. Like I asked earlier, do you honestly hold a bunch of autocratic kingdoms to hold themselves to the same moral responsibility of the liberal democracies of the EU? Well it's not going to happen, so that's why it's our responsibility to do what we can to fix it, and even at that all we're doing is make it look like we attempting to do something.

Don't forget who put Israel on the map in first place. It damn sure wasn't Saudi Arabia or Qatar.
 
The Arab nations don't give a damn about the Palestinians. They just hate the Israelis more. So they'll talk all day about the Palestinians problems and not do crap.

So let's expose them for what they really are.

All the stuff you mentioned just backs this up. Like I asked earlier, do you honestly hold a bunch of autocratic kingdoms to hold themselves to the same moral responsibility of the liberal democracies of the EU? Well it's not going to happen, so that's why it's our responsibility to do what we can to fix it, and even at that all we're doing is make it look like we attempting to do something.

Don't forget who put Israel on the map in first place. It damn sure wasn't Saudi Arabia or Qatar.

Honestly I don't care. We're not bound to support people who hate us:

 
Well according to the CIA, the GDP per capita of the GAza Strip and West Bank is $1100. Thats on about the same wealth as places like Haiti, Mali and Burkino Faso.
And Palis receive FAR more aid than those countries. GDP does not include foreign aid, which is really all the Palis have. They don't produce anything. They just destroy greenhouses and suicide bomb - not alot of money in that.

As for the cigarettes, marijuana and goat buying; it's just symptoms of how messed up the economy is there. If you consider a country that you've got to leave to get basic goods like cigarettes and livestock then go ahead. I just don't see how that story backs up you point that they aren't living in poverty there. If anything it emphasises the dire economic situation.
Nobody buys cigarettes when they are starving. Period. Further, there are plenty of cigarettes for sale in Gaza but they are cheaper in Egypt. Is the mass of humans travelling between Sweden and Denmark buying beer an indication of how poor Swedes are?

The goats being bought is a cultural thing, probably for a dowry. It's not because they need live goats to eat. If they wanted food, they could buy cans instead of goats. Don't be ridiculous; they aren't buying livestock for survival in an urban environment; they're buying them for social prestige.

It's amazing that some people try to twist this into some starving masses stumbling into Egypt for much needed food. What a joke. Do you even notice the Palis calling for the border to be re-closed? Why? So that their neighbors can't get food? Wake up.

@El Machinae: Regarding the "kill em all", I'm just trying to get a rise.
 
And Palis receive FAR more aid than those countries. GDP does not include foreign aid, which is really all the Palis have. They don't produce anything. They just destroy greenhouses and suicide bomb - not alot of money in that.

A combination of absent trade, little commerce in general, presistent conflict, occupation, rotting and partly demolished infrastructure, ravaged ecology and an economic blockade, is pretty much guaranteed to put an end to growth. Your arguments are the usual pathetic arguments that are deployed by the economically ignorant. In this case, it's willful ignorance.
 
So you are saying that they didn't destroy $14000000 worth of modern greenhouses that were donated to them?

Are you saying they don't fire rockets, targetting civilian populations?

Are you saying they don't suicide bomb?

Or are you saying that these things have nothing to do with their poverty?
 
And Palis receive FAR more aid than those countries. bla bla bla

but they still receive far less aid than Wall Street and Detroit :D
maybe they should start making crappy cars and creating Madoff like funds :D
 
I have an idea. Maybe they should stop treating their children like dogs. When your kid is best employed as a meat shield, don't expect alot of progress.
 
So you are saying that they didn't destroy $14000000 worth of modern greenhouses that were donated to them?
Are you saying they don't fire rockets, targetting civilian populations?
Are you saying they don't suicide bomb?
Or are you saying that these things have nothing to do with their poverty?

$14000000??!!!! 14 millions dollars !!! who bothers with millions !!! not even 100's of millions !!! oh come on Eco, don't you have something close to a billion at least!!
 
Those were state-of-the-art greenhouses given to Palis for free. They were in place and operational. They were being used to produce food. The Palis destroyed them, for no reason except to spite the west.

Their poverty is their own fault.

Stop acting like monkeys and maybe things will get better for them. One cannot expect to destroy donations, suicide bomb, fire rockets, slaughter their own people in the streets and have economic growth. Seriously, if that's their economic plan then screw them.
 
Of course. As guards. Sentries. Expendable security assets. Just like Pali children.
 
Those were state-of-the-art greenhouses given to Palis for free. They were in place and operational. They were being used to produce food. The Palis destroyed them, for no reason except to spite the west.
Their poverty is their own fault.
Stop acting like monkeys and maybe things will get better for them. One cannot expect to destroy donations, suicide bomb, fire rockets, slaughter their own people in the streets and have economic growth. Seriously, if that's their economic plan then screw them.

were they plastic or glass greenhouses? and I must say that here in France we did not feel spited (spitten?) about this incident, did many american feel spited about it?
 
Of course. As guards. Sentries. Expendable security assets. Just like Pali children.

we don't have many pali children here for this usage. Maybe you could ship some over to us ? I heard that in Nebraska there are many abondened kids that may be used as dogs, can you be of any help?
 
Well, it was American Jews who donated the greenhouses.

Nah, we don't really feel spited. We expected those apes to do what they did.

The point is, they did it to spite us - at their own expense. So stop blaming others for their problems.

Pali children are treated as worthless scum by the Palis. They use them like dogs. There are plenty of pics in this thread already to prove it.

were they plastic or glass greenhouses?

It was perhaps an odd request to make of a man noted for his commitment to Israeli causes and his fierce criticism of the Palestinian Authority.

Please raise $14 million to help buy the Jewish settlers' lucrative greenhouses in the Gaza Strip so that the Palestinians can take them over when the settlers are gone. Oh, and can you get it done by the weekend, before the pullout starts? If not, the settlers will destroy the greenhouses on their way out of Gaza to keep them out of Arab hands.

Last Wednesday, though, Mortimer B. Zuckerman, real estate magnate and publisher of The Daily News, received just such a pitch from his friend James D. Wolfensohn, the former president of the World Bank, current Middle East envoy for the White House and would-be broker of the deal.

Mr. Zuckerman, who is also former head of the American-Israel Friendship League, the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, and the Soviet Jewish Zionist Forum, said he thought about the ironies. But not for too long.

"Despite my skepticism," Mr. Zuckerman said in an interview on Tuesday, "I thought to myself, 'This is perhaps the only illustration or symbol of what could be the benefits of a co-operational, rather than a confrontational attitude.' "

So he in turn picked up the phone and called a few of his friends and fellow billionaires, who also happened to be prominent Jewish philanthropists.

Not all of them shared his enthusiasm. "Some people said, 'Well, if these people are so anti-Semitic, why should we do anything to help them?' " Mr. Zuckerman said.

But Lester Crown of Chicago, whose family owns General Dynamics, said yes. Leonard Stern, the chairman of the Hartz Mountain real estate empire and former owner of The Village Voice, called Mr. Zuckerman back from a cruise ship in the Mediterranean and said yes. A foundation that prefers to remain anonymous said yes.

Within 48 hours, Mr. Zuckerman said, he had his $14 million. And the Palestinians had a shot at inheriting relatively intact the greenhouses whose vegetables and flowers have been a major source of Israeli export income, and, not incidentally, about 3,500 desperately needed Palestinian jobs.

When the deal was announced Friday, the donors were anonymous, apart from Mr. Wolfensohn, who put up $500,000 of his own. But word about these things tends to leak out, and yesterday morning, Mr. Stern said he got a call at his beach house in the Hamptons from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

"She said that she wanted to let me know that myself and every member of the group that helped make this possible had made a very positive contribution to the peace," he said. Mr. Stern, 67, was asked the last time he received a call from Ms. Rice. "Before my bar mitzvah," he joked, before answering, "Never."

The purchase of the greenhouses had been months in the making. The Israeli government is giving the settlers $55 million for the greenhouses themselves, but Israeli law allows compensation only for buildings and land, not for movables like the greenhouses' computerized irrigation systems.

Without those, the Palestinians would not be able to make a go of running the greenhouses, Mr. Zuckerman said. It was those, the greenhouse guts, that carried the $14 million price tag.

The United States Agency for International Development was willing to put up the money, but could not give it directly to the Israelis because Israel does not qualify for the agency's help, Mr. Zuckerman and Mr. Stern said.

The simple way around that obstacle would have been for the agency to give the money to the Palestinian Authority to hand over to the settlers. But there, Mr. Zuckerman said, "The attitude was, 'We are not going to put our fingerprints on anything that helps the Jews.' "

The donors arranged to funnel their money to the Aspen Institute, a private advocacy group that has been working on investments in the Palestinian areas, and a private Israeli group helped broker the deal with the settlers.

Mr. Stern said he was not used to writing a seven-figure check to a cause he had not had time to research himself.

"But when you know people and you know they're passionate, and you have a great respect for their judgment," he said of Mr. Zuckerman, "I listened to him, and I asked him one question. 'Are you contributing?' He said yes. I said 'Well, O.K., then I will.' "

Mr. Zuckerman is hardly naïve about the prospects for peace in the Middle East.

On Monday in U.S. News & World Report, which he also publishes, he wrote an editorial excoriating both the Palestinian Authority's leader, Mahmoud Abbas, and his more violent, increasingly powerful rivals in Hamas.

"The sad fact," Mr. Zuckerman wrote, "is that everything is going wrong."

But some hope, he said, is better than no hope.

"It's not an easy thing to be up against," Mr. Zuckerman yesterday, "when someone is swearing and yelling at you, and you're saying, 'O.K., well, I'm going to give you $14 million so that you can do better.' But this is the one thing that might be seen as a constructive effort."
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/18/nyregion/18donate.html

The greenhouses were all destroyed.

The west ignores Gaza? Wrong. The west helps Gaza more than it should.
 
So let's expose them for what they really are.

Honestly I don't care. We're not bound to support people who hate us:

Yeah so that's why I'm saying it's up to us to sort this mess. As for exposing them, how will we do this? Anyone with common sense can see it, but I guess we've got to suck up to the oil exporting nations, being european and all.

@ Ecofarm.

I think Princeps made enough valid points about the state of Gaza to reveal your economical innocence.

So you are saying that they didn't destroy $14000000 worth of modern greenhouses that were donated to them?

Are you saying they don't fire rockets, targetting civilian populations?

Are you saying they don't suicide bomb?

Or are you saying that these things have nothing to do with their poverty?

These things were done by Hamas, a group that owes it's political support to the horrid economic and social situation in Gaza. Once those problems are solved radicalism will lose its place there. This means either Hamas will lose support or evolve into a non violent political party.



Those were state-of-the-art greenhouses given to Palis for free. They were in place and operational. They were being used to produce food. The Palis destroyed them, for no reason except to spite the west.

Their poverty is their own fault.

Stop acting like monkeys and maybe things will get better for them. One cannot expect to destroy donations, suicide bomb, fire rockets, slaughter their own people in the streets and have economic growth. Seriously, if that's their economic plan then screw them.

Why is the poverty their own fault? Did they invite Israel in for a 30 odd year occupation just for a laugh?

Wheres this greenhouse story coming from? I suspect you have a hard time differentiating between Hamas militants and ordinary Palestinians.

Well anyways I'm done commenting here for the next few days. I hope this Gaza stuff is done by then.
 
Wheres this greenhouse story coming from?

Despite funds and protection, Gaza greenhouses looted

NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip (AP) — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

"We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke," said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. "We've tried to stop as many people as we can, but they're like locusts."

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel's troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza's future.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas told his people in a televised speech Tuesday that he would take immediate steps to impose order. "We have one law for everyone and no one is above the law. We are not going to tolerate chaos after today," he said.

The Palestinian leader is under intense pressure from his people and the international community to stop the growing lawlessness in Gaza, where rival militant groups are jockeying for power. As Abbas spoke, hundreds of masked Hamas gunmen wielding rifles and grenade launchers paraded through the streets of a nearby refugee camp.

The greenhouses are a centerpiece of Palestinian plans for rebuilding Gaza after 38 years of Israeli occupation. The Palestinian Authority hopes the high-tech greenhouses left by the Israelis will provide jobs and export income for Gaza's shattered economy.

During a tour of Neve Dekalim, Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia implored Palestinians to leave the structures intact. "These greenhouses are for the Palestinian people," he said. "We don't want anyone to touch or harm anything that can be useful for our people."

Jihad al-Wazir, the deputy Palestinian finance minister, said roughly 30% of the greenhouses suffered various degrees of damage. He said that after a "very heated meeting" with Qureia and other Palestinian leaders, the security forces appeared to be getting the situation under control.

"We expect the security to protect the assets properly," he said.

Al-Wazir said the greenhouses did not suffer structural damage, but that looters got away with irrigation pipes, plastic sheeting and most troublesome, water pumps. He said authorities were trying to recover the expensive pumps.

In other developments Tuesday, Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz toured two West Bank settlements, Karnei Shomron and Beit Arieh, and said Israel must develop the main blocs there after its Gaza pullout.

"We have to make every effort to direct resources to strengthen the settlement blocs," Mofaz said, according to his ministry. "We must do everything possible to strengthen the residents' feeling of security."

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said one reason for the Gaza pullout was to strengthen Israel's grip on its main settlement blocs in the West Bank, where 246,000 settlers live. Palestinians demand a complete Israeli pullout from the West Bank after its withdrawal from Gaza.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-13-mideast_x.htm

I suspect you have a hard time differentiating between Hamas militants and ordinary Palestinians.
I, personally, do not need to differenciate. The article is clear.
 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-13-mideast_x.htm


I, personally, do not need to differenciate. The article is clear.

Yes. It is very clear. As the article says, 30% of the greenhouses suffered some degree of damage through looting but suffered no structural damage. Therefore $14,000,000 worth of greenhouses were not destroyed. It also made clear that ordinary people did the looting and that it was Hamas officials incuding the P.M., Ahmed Qureia, who acted swiftly to restore order and protect the greenhouses from further damage.
Glad you cleared that up. Otherwise we might have got the wrong impression.;)
 
Well, it was American Jews who donated the greenhouses. Nah, we don't really feel spited. We expected those apes to do what they did. The point is, they did it to spite us - at their own expense. So stop blaming others for their problems.
Pali children are treated as worthless scum by the Palis. They use them like dogs. There are plenty of pics in this thread already to prove it.

why do you call Palestinians "apes"? because of the greenhouse looting? but the same happens in the US, I mean you do remember Katrina for example, an example of American efficiency ;-)
should we call you pigs? squirrels? or bonobos?
 
Yes. It is very clear. As the article says, 30% of the greenhouses suffered some degree of damage through looting but suffered no structural damage. Therefore $14,000,000 worth of greenhouses were not destroyed. It also made clear that ordinary people did the looting and that it was Hamas officials incuding the P.M., Ahmed Qureia, who acted swiftly to restore order and protect the greenhouses from further damage.
Glad you cleared that up. Otherwise we might have got the wrong impression.;)


They were all eventually destroyed, completely. Sorry if I don't provide an article for every month of the event.

why do you call Palestinians "apes"? because of the greenhouse looting? but the same happens in the US, I mean you do remember Katrina for example, an example of American efficiency ;-)
should we call you pigs? squirrels? or bonobos?

Say anything you like, it's a free country. I call Pali children dogs because that is how the Palis treat them. I call the Palis apes because that is their manner.
 
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