Israel Lobby in the United States

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Shekwan, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. Shekwan

    Shekwan Kim Chi Quaffing Celt

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    So you're saying that the US should aid countries for little actual gain and put its citizens under further risk, because there would be people willing to attack anyway?

    The odds aren't against their survival though, they are an unrivalled regional power complete with a nuclear aresenal. $3 billion dollars may not sound a lot in the wake of the bailouts, but remember thats $500 per Israeli citizen per year. Nice little stipend for whats essentially a one way alliance. Israel didn't help much in Iraq did it? Can you give me any examples of Israel helping the US' best interests since 1967? I mean really making a difference.

    Israeli-Arabs are very much second class citizens. This wiki article outlines the discriminatory issues there. Its a well referenced article using an American source, so if anything its biased toward Israel.

    As for the holocaust guilt thing, that doesn't account for the lavish aid the US gives to Israel. The endless aid only began post 1967, and by then Israel had absolutely obliterated anyone they went to war with in the 20 years previously. Israel was already the foremost power in the region by a wide margin when the excessive US aid started. Theres no question that by that stage Israel was very secure as a state and there was a safe homeland for the Jewish people.

    Well fair enough. The article makes a good point that the power of the Lobby in the US may not have even been all that good for Israel. Its prevented any sort of peace deal occuring due to the US' bias, and as such empowered extremists like Hamas to gain popularity.

    Really? You went to a Jewish school or something?
     
  2. Godwynn

    Godwynn March to the Sea

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    Yeah, don't ask why, I don't understand it either.
     
  3. Mathalamus

    Mathalamus Emperor of Mathalia

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    i can understand why. throughout history, Jews were treated badly by Christians.
     
  4. neutrino

    neutrino Warlord

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    Insofar as relative influence of pro-Israel lobby in the US, I think a good starting point is to break it down into two periods: Pre-1980, then post-1980.

    1. Pre-1980: Israel had more favorable image back then. Several reasons: a) Western sympathy towards the Jews and the establishment of Israel, as the horrors of the Holocaust was not that far away; b) Israelis have won four Arab-Israeli Wars, which defied the imagination of just about anyone not familiar with military history; c) Negligible Arab and Muslim presence in the realm of global media vis-á-vis the West.

    2. Post-1980: Previously standout image started to erode. Several reasons: a) Israeli invasion of Lebanon, although she had her own reasons (courtesy of Hizbollah ... LOL), it outraged world opinions as well as lacked popular support among the Israelis; b) Palestinian uprisings in which its media spin was done pretty well even to this day; c) Massive cash from the oil translates into more money for the Arabs to spin the media better than the Jews; d) Divisions within Jewish intellectuals and politicians along the 'left' and 'right' lines; e) Rise of Islamic radicalism with ready access to global mass media; f) The Holocaust is now over 60 years ago ... it no longer has the media attention it used to have, plus the rise of younger generation who does not give a crap about such thing.

    ******

    The idea that Israel is a proxy to the US: Maybe ... but maybe not:

    1. Israel is not even the single largest recipient of US aid. Egypt gets a bigger share. Not only that, Jordan also gets aid from the US. Furthermore, the US also have ties with Gulf Arab states. Also, strings are attached to such a foreign aid: The recipient must buy goodies from the US. (Off-topic: This also applies to non-US foreign aid.)

    2. Things have not been always cozy between the US and Israel. Going back to the early '80s, there was an infamous Jackson Pollard case, in which he was prosecuted for espionage and has been under life imprisonment ever since. Towards the late '90s, Israel ticked off the US for selling its Lavi fighter design to China, thereby China acquiring the specs for something that is equivalent to US F-16 fighters (which is still the largest fighter inventory in USAF).
     
  5. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    Hmmm.

    http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence-report/archive/who-gets-us-foreign-aid.html

    Small potatoes compared to the 29 critical UN Security Council vetoes the US has made on their behalf.

    And now Israel has the recent Supreme Court ordained right to spend as much as they please to buy even more US politicians.
     
  6. Kal'thzar

    Kal'thzar Deity

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    Not just gypsies, but my point is that a lot of people don't know about the others who were killed, it just really bugs me that everyone can spout off the Jewish killed and not even be aware of the others.
     
  7. holy king

    holy king Deity

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    they are a truely superior race.
     
  8. BasketCase

    BasketCase Username sez it all

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    Israel is a democratic state that treats women properly. Also, when they want to kill you, they (usually) don't kill you by strapping explosives under their jacket and killing everybody within a fifty-yard radius in order to get at you. They make at least a half-assed effort to avoid killing innocents. There have been Israeli terrorists in the past, but only a very few.

    Compared to everybody else in the region, the Israelis are angelic. Overlooking Israel's sins is not such a great option, but on this particular list (of "ways to deal with the Middle East") all the other options are much worse.
     
  9. Eli

    Eli Emperor

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    You wrote quite a lot of stuff that are wrong, but since my time is limited I'll focus on this one. For what it's worth, this line you wrote is relatively original, unlike the rest of your posts...

    Israel didn't help much in Iraq, right? Well, did the US ever ask for Israeli help? The answer is no. Moreover, the US explicitly asked Israel to not get involved. Remember the First Gulf War, when Iraqi missiles were falling on Israeli cities? The US had to exert all it's influence to stop Israel from joining the fight.

    The United States is a global superpower with interests all over the globe. It is also an ideological symbol. Conflicting interests and conflicting ideologies will always create friction, Israel has nothing to do with it. And if you think about this a bit more, you'll realize that if it weren't for Israel to serve as a bait, 9/11 would've probably happened a few years earlier than it did.

    But that answer might have been slightly too long, so I'll give you a short one:
    Why should the US support Israel? Simple: When you ask us, we will fight.
     
  10. Karalysia

    Karalysia Deity

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    Actually a number of foregin policy analysts and political scientists believe that the US support for Israel has resulted in more harm for the US and US interests than any good. I'm inclined to think they are correct. Israel is a burden on us, not a benefit.
     
  11. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    What exactly do you mean by this if not "the Jews are manipulating America"? Who are those 3%?
     
  12. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Oh come on. Them being Jewish hasn't nothing to do with it. It's completely irrelevant. If you took a group of Englishmen comprising 3% of the population, and gave them such a large amount of power to manipulate American politics and policy to benefit the UK as much as the Israel lobby manipulates politics and policy to benefit Israel, that would be an analogous situation. Your implication that the complaint about the large influence of such a small lobby being worrying, is based on those on the receiving end being Jewish, is not accurate in the slightest.
     
  13. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    My complaint is that, in a typical anti-semitic fashion, he is making an accusation against Jews in general, not only those who he perceives as lobbyists. Lobbyists are not 3% of the population.

    He textually accused the Jews (in general) of manipulating the USA. If you see nothing wrong with that, wow.

    The implications of his accusation are pretty damn clear. If this large group (3% of the population!) is manipulating the other 97% for the benefit of a foreign state, they're pretty much aliens inside the broader society. It's the same old story: "Jews can't be Americans or French or whatever; they're manipulating bastards that only care for their tribe! Out with them!"
     
  14. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    No. It's not. If you would care to read from the document available for download in the OP:
    So it's a paraphrase from the document, that is not anti-semitic, but a statement of facts. Jewish people make up under 3% of the population (paraphrased to 3%), and they make large campaign donations, giving them significant leverage.
     
  15. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    You cannot blame Israel as though it is something secret. We're willfully complicit in their influence. They are, after all, the chosen people of God. It is our duty as a nation 'under God' to support them.
     
  16. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I think very little of this is due to the Jewish religion. A huge majority of the issue is that some types of Christians raise their children with little racist myths about historical Jews, and then culturally associate these myths with the current group of people we call Jews.

    There might or might not be something latent in Jewish culture that encourages the seeking of wealth & prestige. But even if there was, it's certainly something that should be encouraged. That's not where most of the clout comes from, anyway. Most of the clout comes from non-Jews being trained (by Christian, not Jews) to think that the Jewish people are somehow extra-special.

    edit: the timestamp might not imply it, but this was a cross-post.
     
  17. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    It is complete nonsense, and the phrase I quoted is quite bizarre. Jews in the US are quite a diverse bunch, politically, and most vote for the Democrats. Several Jewish Americans are critics of Conservative Israelis, and tend to support the Labor Party instead. Of course others are quite conservative. Many Jewish Americans do not care about Israel any more than your average american.

    So complete nonsense. And they donate more because they are more affluent than average.
     
  18. Karalysia

    Karalysia Deity

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    I'm going to expand on this:

    A: During the Cold War the fundamental goals of US policy was 2 fold:
    1. Contain and restrict Soviet expansion and influence in the Middle East hence the Northern tier strategy which say the US support Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Pakistan in the Baghdad Pact giving all of these nations vast amounts of military aid and political support. Egypt and Jordan and the Gulf States also came into the US fold.
    2. Secure oil for US markets hence the relationship with Saudi Arabia

    Spreading of liberal democracy has never been a fundamental or important goal for the US in the middle east despite what some ideological warriors would like to have you think. Hence the notion of supporting or spreading liberal democracy as a reason for US support of Israel is mistaken. With the fall of the USSR now the two main goals are to:

    1. Ensure supply of oil for US markets.
    2. Fight terrorisim.

    Israel serves no fundamental interest of the US. Is it in a strategic location? No. Does it have oil? No. Can we build bases in Israel? No. Can Israeli troops be deployed in say Iraq? No that would be impossible and the Israelis would be unwilling. The Mossad may or may not be helpful against terror, but how many Palestinian suicide bombers have struck the US? Not many. The Jordian intelligence has been more useful in this regard I dare say.

    So what interest of the US is being served by supporting Israel? In our support for it we anger the governments and populations of the Middle East whom we have actual fundamental interests with. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and so forth. Were we to scale down or end our support of Israel it is reasonable to assume our relations with these countries would improve, and possibly even Syria, Lebanon and Iran. US interests are not being helped in our support of Israel.

    In fact I say our support of Israel fundamentally damages our interests in the Middle East. Israel is a cross we are forced to bear. It would best serve our interests if we ended our support of it.
     
  19. neutrino

    neutrino Warlord

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    OOps ... I got Egypt and Iraq mixed up. Iraq has been the largest recipient of US aid (both economic and military) since 2003.

    As for Iraq, it will probably be receiving the largest amount of US foreign aid for a while, especially since it has among the worst credit rating in the world. (Saddam borrowed a plenty of money from the Gulf states to fund Iran-Iraq War, then balked when his Gulf allies started making noise on the Iraqi debt and proceeded to invade Kuwait. What a way to tank one's own credit score!)

    At any rate, foreign aid is not quite a freebie; the recipient is expected to spend the aid money on the donor's goods and services. In case of military aid, buy donor's equipments. In case of economic aid, buy donor's products and services. They are also broken down into two distinct components: grants and loans.
     
  20. Patronus Potter

    Patronus Potter Chieftain

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    He said that 3% of the population manipulates the country "to the extent that it is almost unacceptable to criticize Israel..."

    This clearly implies that the entire Jewish population is politically united in attempting this manipulation. When people talk about stuff like this, they usually mention that anti-Israel criticism is unfairly equated with anti-Semitism. It doesn't help to imply that all U.S. Jews are part of some conspiracy to control the country. The new lobbying organization J Street is opposed to AIPAC and has been getting a lot of support from American Jews and is gaining profile and influence.
     

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