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Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla II

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by holy king, Jun 3, 2010.

  1. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    The thing is, it could happen. Or rather, it was a possible future development after the Hamas election win. They were internally divided over the issue. Talks were ongoing through intermediary channels of for starters finding some kind of work-around for the problem of the Hamas policy of not recognizing Israel. And that was always the more probable scenario for any kind of development ending with even the Hamas being OK with continued Israeli existence — rather than some kind of SciFI 180° turn in the matter. This is why bodies like the EU is by now publicly holding the position that not recognizing Hamas back then, and the blockade, were and are rotten ideas.

    But since we now have the blockade, we don't need no development as status quo is so totally working out...
     
  2. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Indeed. All is peachy and I have a picture that shows a mall, and one that shows a beach. Everyone knows that in areas where there's a beach and a mall there can be no suffering. :)

    That's why Boston was a different ballgame. They didn't have a mall in 1770
     
  3. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    It's rather a matter of Israel should be pulling out regardless if Hamas comments on it at all.

    You cannot stop the 20-25% Palestinian minority which still wants armed struggle from trying to have a go at Israel. Or rather, Israel can, but not without either outright occupation, or a Palestinian majority partner succeeding in policing the matter. Since Israel doesn't want to do the former, it needs to come to terms with the Palestinians to do the latter.

    And no, you can't get guarantees it will work, but yes Israel should still do it, because there is at least a possibility of a solution if a viable Palestinian state can be erected and eventually handles itself as any other. It might seem counter intuitive, but Israel's best shot is for the Palestinians getting their sh!t together. You might think it improbable (and it is highly risky for Israel, but so is status quo) because of the Palestinian track-record.

    Still, Israel has a number of choices here, none of which very pleasant, but they still matter.
     
  4. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    The simple fact is that the Palestinians will eventually have to accept that they are wrong and get over it. It doens't bother me that they live like they do because it is a choice they made.

    They are rational human beings, they know their woes are self inflicted, eventually they will realize cutting off their nose to spite the face is not the best course of action and they will do something about it. Validating their current course of action is the WORST thing we could possibly do right now, save a few here to condem the many later on.
     
  5. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Wait, what?
     
  6. civver_764

    civver_764 Deity

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    The Palestinians are wrong about what? That they shouldn't be treated as second class citizens?

    Replacing one problem with several others isn't really solving the problem.

    It's not like you have a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.

    If they accept the 1967 borders then obviously they are letting Israel exist.

    Plus I like how Israel doesn't have to recognize their right to exist.
     
  7. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    Are you really denying this? Do you have any knowledge of their history whatsoever? Do you think the Isrealis do what they do for giggles?

    There is nothing the Isrealis have done that can not be more than explained by the actions of the Palestinians. They could have played nice, but from day one they rejected the Jews and from suicide bombing schools to supporting nations waging open warfare against them, they have engineered their own conditions.
     
  8. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Must be an unique Palestinian trait. I know of no other nation who can boast this.
    The Palestinians invited them to settle there after the war?

    I didn't know that. In that case they've got themselves to blame.
     
  9. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

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    It doesn't matter that Hamas is still in charge there, they can still attack Israel even after it will pull out of the West Bank. And the "pulled out of Gaza" argument is just fine - yes, Israel was still occupying the west bank, but that is because the west bank was, and still will be, a lot harder to pull out of. There were about 9,000 settlers in Gaza before the withdrawal, and it took about two months to get them all out. Now imagine the west bank which not only holds about 500,000 settlers, but is also 10 times bigger than the Gaza strip, and even bigger than the small area all the 9,000 settlers were, called "Gush Katif".

    Pulling out of the west bank isn't "just something they need to do", it's going to take months to prepare and maybe even a lot more to execute. It will tear the country apart, it's something that Israel can't do unless it is absolutely sure that it will end all violence, and the increase in the violent attacks of the Hamas after the Gaza withdrawal only served to magnify this problem.


    I didn't blame all of them, but there is no way the US would let it slide if Mexico had a group of terrorists attacking the US.

    You also must remember that before the decades they were oppressed, they were the ones doing the oppression.
    I looked for these economic sanctions you mentioned and couldn't find any.
     
  10. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    Indeed.

    Do you think the Palestinians do what they do for lulz?

    And there is nothing the Palestinians have done that cannot be explained by the actions of Zionists or Israelis.

    By the way, this is the sort of conversation the Israelis and the Palestinians have been having for the last century. The last thing a century-long conflict need is more recrimination and finger-pointing.
     
  11. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    I really can't imagine why those Pallies are so ticked off. I'm sure those settlers only took the land the Palestinians didn't want, right?

    No Palestinians were displaced in the making of these settlements.
     
  12. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    That is a complete non-sequitur statement.

    But I would still be very curious to see what you think a working future for Israelis and Palestinians alike would look like, based on it?

    Edit:
    As for the suicide bombings, that's a tell-tale sign you have about about a decades perspective on things, right? Until 1967 Israel was occupying no Palestinians, building no settlements in the West Bank, not fiddling with East Jerusalem. From 1967 they were. There were no suicide bombers, or Hamas. By the time of the first Intifada the Palestinians were making the entirely reasonable point that one nation cannot go on indefinitely occupying another. It was still a completely secular conflict over land. It is at this point Israel should have let them go, including the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Israel didn't, and through gradual perversion on both sides, we today arrive at the present mess, suicide bomber, religious politics (on both sides) et al.

    Israel won the war, but lost the peace for thinking winning the war would provide a political solution. It doesn't, so here we all are, but despite this there are continued attempts to assume that because Israel won the war somehow it shouldn't have to face up to working out a political solution, as if that was some kind of moral basis on which the universe operates. Few things are as dangerous to nations as military success. Makes you think crooked.
     
  13. Silurian

    Silurian Deity

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    I agree eventually the Palestinians will give up trying to get independance from Israel and demand citizenship
     
  14. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    A decade of perspective? Its your position that Palestinian suicide bombings started in 2000? Obviously you are wrong, and if I throw in hostage taking and airliner bombings/hijackings the picture looks even more dismal for the Palestinian side.

    Then their is that whole actively aiding foreign nations in successive invasions of Isreal thing, obviously no big deal though right?

    Isreal has offerend myraid political solutions, all of which have been more than generous given the actions of the Palestinians for over half a century. Palestinians are the ones who reject ever peace offer outright or fail to live by them.

    Its really no skin off Isreal's back. With the walls and blockades the Palestinians are less of a threat than they have ever been. This will only continue as the West Bank continues to develope based on their ability to make rational decisions concering the reality of their situation.

    Gaza will wallow in mire for as long as they wish. They can stop the second the decide they no longer want to. Its as simple as that.
     
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Let's remember that the median age is 17.5 years.
    It's quite hard to state that they're collectively responsible for the state that they're in. The majority of them were born into the current conditions and are merely responding to the conditions they were born into. Kids born in a ghetto are going to act like they were ghettoised.
     
  16. Formaldehyde

    Formaldehyde Both Fair And Balanced

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    It is much like blacks in the US. Many of them continue to be oppressed, and the people who are largely responsible for that oppression continue to claim it is their own fault.

    It is part of the far-right mindset. Nothing is ever the fault of the policies which they advocate. It is always due to the acts of someone else, and they are merely reacting to those acts in a completely rational manner.

    And the cycle of oppression continues without end.
     
  17. civver_764

    civver_764 Deity

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    You guys are impossible to argue with. Your bias is painful. I can only remain optimistic that the rest of the world disagrees with you and it won't be long before the US stranglehold over the UN will be destroyed.

    Oh shut up. You're going to have to forgive me for not having an emotional breakdown over those people.

    I'm sure it would've been hard to get rid of the concentration camps as well, that doesn't mean they should've stayed.

    But of course Israel can't do something wrong and their illegal actions are justified by default.

    No. When you have exactly zero efforts on the part of Israel and Israeli settlers to even start evacuating(let alone even stop building new settlements and the apartheid wall), when you have an Israeli prime minister purposely trying to avoid peace and destroy any chance of Palestinian state hood, when you have millions of displaced Palestinians because of this, there is a serious problem here. This isn't a matter of the time frame of pulling of pulling out of WB, this is a matter of a racist apartheid government having no intention to do so.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007–present_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip#1989-2004
     
  18. MobBoss

    MobBoss Off-Topic Overlord

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    Especially when they are fed propaganda like Farfur the terror mouse...

    Bill Cosby?? :confused:

    What would your completely rational response be to being shot at by rockets and mortars without provocation?

    I would actually prefer to see the US out of the UN entirely. Then it truely would be a meaningless entity.
     
  19. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    I don't know whether or not you were meaning this facetiously, but that's absolutely part of the problem! That adds more to the argument that you can't blame the Palestinians for the situation they are born and raised in. When children are subject to such propaganda, is it any wonder that they may harbour antipathy for Israel? And is it right to blame those children for that which they are subjected to?

    Think of the children!
     
  20. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Silly furry

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    That's not what he said.

    I can't say I blame them.

    Brilliantly one-sided commentary, sir!
     

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