Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla

[Sterf]

So all the nations of the earth that board vessels in international waters are guilty of piracy?

Please.

Which country forcefully boards in international waters? Keeping in mind Israel's standpoint on not occupying Gaza, and there's no war going on according to Israel. Which in itself is ridiculous since they're taking the Palestinian people prisoners, but there you have it.

 

[really]

There is still another boat on its way - it stopped in Malta because of engine trouble.

The 'Rachel Corrie'

 

[Formaldehyde]

The Daily Show is back from vacation with a vengeance! 3:10 in...

Jon Stewart on what was found on the ships:

I knew it. Hamas is working on a crutchapult.

Charles Krauthammer:

What exactly is the humanitarian crisis the flotilla was actually addressing? There is none. There is no one starving in Gaza.

Jon Stewart:

In fact, I believe there is a Sandals Resort there that I hear good things about.

Whatever you might think of the respective leadership, the Israelis or the Hamas, whatever gods you may pray to, or whatever driection you pray to them in, if you can't even look at Gaza and agree that there is suffering there that needs to be alleviated, no matter who is to blame for it, then your heart is so dead tourists flock there to float on their back in it.

 

[GinandTonic]

Im also annoyed by the fact that Israelis dont seem to be judged by the same standards as their enemies.

When were the Brits ever judged by the same standards as the IRA or the Mau Mau? How many people have ever commented on the Zulus human rights record in the late 19th century?

If you have overwhelming power people hold you to a different standard, and besides you are supposed to be the good guys.

 

[Sterf]

Also, why are the Palestinian people enemies? You forcefully drive them of their land, cut them of their farms, try to starve them and deny them countless things through an illegal blockade and they still don't like you? What a surprise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLB8DfhnJD0

 

[BurnEmDown]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV6DVk04HkM

Just going to leave this here.

 

[Rumilus]

When were the Brits ever judged by the same standards as the IRA or the Mau Mau? How many people have ever commented on the Zulus human rights record in the late 19th century?

If you have overwhelming power people hold you to a different standard, and besides you are supposed to be the good guys.

Overwhelming power over your enemy means you need to accept attacks from smaller party towards your civilians on regular basis? I do not believe Israel should be forced to stand down until terror groups are forced to stop the attacks against Israeli civilians.

But Id like to have an answer. Regardless of how over the top you feel Israelis are, they think they were acting fully and in accordance to law. How does this factor in the Gaza flottila incident?

 

[Rumilus]

Also, why are the Palestinian people enemies? You forcefully drive them of their land, cut them of their farms, try to starve them and deny them countless things through an illegal blockade and they still don't like you? What a surprise.

Right, that gives the right to shoot the jew.

 

[Patroklos]

Which country forcefully boards in international waters? .

All of then. I am I freaking navy boarding officer. LISTEN!

 

[Sterf]

But Id like to have an answer. Regardless of how over the top you feel Israelis are, they think they were acting fully and in accordance to law. How does this factor in the Gaza flottila incident?

Regardless of how you feel, the whole world (except Israel's buddy USA) agrees this was a heinous act of terrorism. They were not at all in any sense acting according to law, and it is intellectually dishonest of you to pretend they were. First of all, Israel claims it is not in war with the Palestinian people or occupying them. If that were true they would not isolate the Palestinian people from the rest of the world and denying them food, educative materials, rebuilding materials and aid of any kind. The rules of the Geneva Convention are pretty damn clear about how you can't collectively punish an entire people even in war (if there was any war, Israel denies this). Israel completely breaches any international law ever made and don't give a damn. Even with this flotilla they said they would bring the aid to Gaza, yet they say that tents and cement or prefab housing would not go through since they do not (illegally) allow that in.

Secondly, they should not forcefully invade humanitarian aid in international waters because of some completely illegal blockade only enforced to make any Palestinian alive suffer. If you have any other reason for this blockade do tell me why pencils and paper, toys, musical instruments, and so on is forbidden to enter gaza for instance.

 

[Princeps]

They can hardly stop tho. Israelis are being regularly attacked and killed. Only the past 5-6 years have been better since the wall and the blockades seem work so well to prevent the violence towards them.

Or the fact that Palestinian groups have largely abandoned violent efforts against the Israelis.

There is no reason to presume that the blockade can or has stopped the rocket firing. The rockets are mostly manufactured with homemade materials and Gaza is a net exporter of weapons, not an importer.

Right, that gives the right to shoot the jew.

Well, yes if the Jew is wearing a uniform and a mushroom hat (the head gear of the IDF), then they're quite justified in shooting that particular Jew.

 

[Takhisis]

All of then. I am I freaking navy boarding officer. LISTEN!

Yes, we know, but common usage and customs does not make a law.

 

[Sterf]

Right, that gives the right to shoot the jew.

The JEW has nothing to do with it, you cretin. My grandfather and grandmother have survived the holocaust. Because of that they would spit upon anyone so hateful against any people that they would put them in what is in practice an enormous concentration camp like the Palestinian people today. It is such a low practice to scream anti-semitism at any rightful critique at Israel. It has NOTHING to do with Judaism, NOTHING to do with the holocaust. Any supporter of the Palestinian people is NOT an anti-semitic bastard and it is the lowest of the low to bring this up in a discussion such as this.

Moderator Action: Flaming.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Rumilus]

Regardless of how you feel, the whole world (except Israel's buddy USA) agrees this was a heinous act of terrorism. They were not at all in any sense acting according to law, and it is intellectually dishonest of you to pretend they were. First of all, Israel claims it is not in war with the Palestinian people or occupying them. If that were true they would not isolate the Palestinian people from the rest of the world and denying them food, educative materials, rebuilding materials and aid of any kind. The rules of the Geneva Convention are pretty damn clear about how you can't collectively punish an entire people even in war (if there was any war, Israel denies this). Israel completely breaches any international law ever made and don't give a damn. Even with this flotilla they said they would bring the aid to Gaza, yet they say that tents and cement or prefab housing would not go through since they do not (illegally) allow that in.

Secondly, they should not forcefully invade humanitarian aid in international waters because of some completely illegal blockade only enforced to make any Palestinian alive suffer. If you have any other reason for this blockade do tell me why pencils and paper, toys, musical instruments, and so on is forbidden to enter gaza for instance.

You completely miss the point. I'm not pretending they were acting in accordance to law, I honestly don't know if they were. Read few previous posts between me and GinandTonic.

 

[GinandTonic]

Overwhelming power over your enemy means you need to accept attacks from smaller party towards your civilians on regular basis? I do not believe Israel should be forced to stand down until terror groups are forced to stop the attacks against Israeli civilians.

But Id like to have an answer. Regardless of how over the top you feel Israelis are, they think they were acting fully and in accordance to law. How does this factor in the Gaza flottila incident?

Look how it worked with the IRA. They kill eight or ten to one more than the British Army and who were the bad guys? When the Brits responded with overwhelming force on Bloody Sunday - would hardly note a mention in Gaza - another generation of killers were created. At a rough guess the 13 men who died that day caused the death of a thousand more people at the hands of the IRA? Fifteen hundred? A bad bloody deal however you cut it if it was 50-1 or 100-1.

The current policy, which the flotilla was designed to bring to the agenda, is simply counter productive and probably illegal. It's not as if prosecuting the commandos would do any good, and we all know the politicos of every stripe are always kept lilly white, but I'ld say that at some future truth-and-reconciliation commission there is some booty to be kissed over it. But when that day comes there will be an awful lot of booty kissed on all sides.

 

[Sterf]

Look how it worked with the IRA. They kill eight or ten to one more than the British Army and who were the bad guys? When the Brits responded with overwhelming force on Bloody Sunday - would hardly note a mention in Gaza - another generation of killers were created. At a rough guess the 13 men who died that day caused the death of a thousand more people at the hands of the IRA? Fifteen hundred? A bad bloody deal however you cut it if it was 50-1 or 100-1.

The current policy, which the flotilla was designed to bring to the agenda, is simply counter productive and probably illegal. It's not as if prosecuting the commandos would do any good, and we all know the politicos of every stripe are always kept lilly white, but I'ld say that at some future truth-and-reconciliation commission there is some booty to be kissed over it. But when that day comes there will be an awful lot of booty kissed on all sides.

This has nothing to do with this, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, but somehow you still bring it up. The only time over thousands dead in this conflict was ever applicable, it would apply to the Palestinian people.
Lawfully the flotilla was completely in the right since if Israel wouldn't be at war with the Palestinian people like they say they aren't, a blockade would be by extension be illegal. And again, even in war this particular blockade would be illegal no matter what since it's collective punishment on the Palestinian people. Even ignoring all of that, what Israel likes to do, it doesn't excuse the massacre on civilians that happened anyway. Not even if you on a later date paint them as terrorists.

 

[Rumilus]

Look how it worked with the IRA. They kill eight or ten to one more than the British Army and who were the bad guys? When the Brits responded with overwhelming force on Bloody Sunday - would hardly note a mention in Gaza - another generation of killers were created. At a rough guess the 13 men who died that day caused the death of a thousand more people at the hands of the IRA? Fifteen hundred? A bad bloody deal however you cut it if it was 50-1 or 100-1.

The current policy, which the flotilla was designed to bring to the agenda, is simply counter productive and probably illegal. It's not as if prosecuting the commandos would do any good, and we all know the politicos of every stripe are always kept lilly white, but I'ld say that at some future truth-and-reconciliation commission there is some booty to be kissed over it. But when that day comes there will be an awful lot of booty kissed on all sides.

You are skirting the issue. We shouldn't judge the defenders of the flotilla because they acted what they thought was in accordance to the law, but we should judge the Israelis, eventho they too thought they were acting in accordance to the law.

As for it being counter productive, compare the number of terror attacks and Israeli civilian casualties during the past few years to the decade before blockades and the wall. If attacks and the number of death among Israeli civilians increase after the siege is lifted, then what?

 

[Sterf]

You completely miss the point. I'm not pretending they were acting in accordance to law, I honestly don't know if they were. Read few previous posts between me and GinandTonic.

I'll try and look up what you said. I like you since you wished me luck with my migraine yesterday hehe. I was replying to what you explicitly said to me though. Anyway, there isn't a legal document in existence that would side with Israel on this or any other matter involving Gaza, and the whole world knows it. And now i'm looking at your replies and can't see where I'm missing the point at all.

 

[GinandTonic]

This has nothing to do with this, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, but somehow you still bring it up. The only time over thousands dead in this conflict was ever applicable, it would apply to the Palestinian people.
Lawfully the flotilla was completely in the right since if Israel wouldn't be at war with the Palestinian people like they say they aren't, a blockade would be by extension be illegal. And again, even in war this particular blockade would be illegal no matter what since it's collective punishment on the Palestinian people. Even ignoring all of that, what Israel likes to do, it doesn't excuse the massacre on civilians that happened anyway. Not even if you on a later date paint them as terrorists.

That, I think, was my point.

The Brits kill a fraction of the number of the IRA. Allow all nationals of NI and the Republic free movement without passports across the whole UK. Allow every Irish citizen resident in the UK to vote in all UK elections. Rebate the tax paid to the UK by the citizens on the Republic living there to the Republic in the hope of getting some kind of economy going. And they are still the bad guys in international eyes, but it worked, more or less.

So when asked hat the Israelis should do when some little tosser blows up a bar I was pointing out that when the UK overreacted it made things worse and when they played nice it made things better.

The problem is you have to be nice hundreds of times to make up for each overreaction.

 

[Rumilus]

I'll try and look up what you said. I like you since you wished me luck with my migraine yesterday hehe. I was replying to what you explicitly said to me though. Anyway, there isn't a legal document in existence that would side with Israel on this or any other matter involving Gaza, and the whole world knows it. And now i'm looking at your replies and can't see where I'm missing the point at all.

I think this is the crux of the issue atm:

Then there is ofcourse the US Vice President Joe Biden.

But truth is, no matter how you try to pull it around, there is no clear binding decision anywhere in a court or international body whether the blockade is illegal or not.

Completely agree

My point was that those claiming it being legal as an established fact were overreaching. It's not an established fact, and those on the ships believed the other side. When people dont recognise that the people on the ships believed they had every right under the law to defend themselves they miss the whole bloody point.

And now Im trying to find out why the same doesn't apply when judging the Israeli actions in the flotilla.