Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla

[JollyRoger]

Baseball bats as military grade contraband?

Will Israelist apologists swing at anything?

 

[Sterf]

You are skirting the issue. We shouldn't judge the defenders of the flotilla because they acted what they thought was in accordance to the law, but we should judge the Israelis, eventho they too thought they were acting in accordance to the law.

As for it being counter productive, compare the number of terror attacks and Israeli civilian casualties during the past few years to the decade before blockades and the wall. If attacks and the number of death among Israeli civilians increase after the siege is lifted, then what?

When Israel is purposely starving an entire people, blocking educative materials like pencils and papers, forbidding weelchairs, toys, musical instruments, any sort of product that is necessary for a somewhat functioning economy, anything they could use to rebuild their homes including tents to sleep under or even anything they could use to enjoy, destroying the economy since everything an economy needs is forbidden, making most than half of the population unemployed, how can you say that they direct illogical hatred towards those that inflict this suffering upon them? Please, do put yourself in the place of those that would suffer these consequences. Imagine you are born in a horrible worlds as that one is. How can you say that they are being unreasonable on any level? Even if they select the only government that promises to change this (I don't condone Hamas, this is for illustration).

 

[Rumilus]

That, I think, was my point.

The Brits kill a fraction of the number of the IRA. Allow all nationals of NI and the Republic free movement without passports across the whole UK. Allow every Irish citizen resident in the UK to vote in all UK elections. Rebate the tax paid to the UK by the citizens on the Republic living there to the Republic in the hope of getting some kind of economy going. And they are still the bad guys in international eyes, but it worked, more or less.

So when asked hat the Israelis should do when some little tosser blows up a bar I was pointing out that when the UK overreacted it made things worse and when they played nice it made things better.

The problem is you have to be nice hundreds of times to make up for each overreaction.

What about when some little tossers fly planes into tall buildings? When are you allowed to defend your civilians?

 

[Takhisis]

Baseball bats as military grade contraband?

Will Israelist apologists swing at anything?

What would they want to confiscate the bats for otherwise? THey need te bats to swing at something .

 

[GinandTonic]

You are skirting the issue. We shouldn't judge the defenders of the flotilla because they acted what they thought was in accordance to the law, but we should judge the Israelis, eventho they too thought they were acting in accordance to the law.

As for it being counter productive, compare the number of terror attacks and Israeli civilian casualties during the past few years to the decade before blockades and the wall. If attacks and the number of death among Israeli civilians increase after the siege is lifted, then what?

I didnt say we should judge the commandos more harshly than the activists - baring, y'know, all the dead people which is rather a biggie - they are the pawns in the game.

Given that blockade is a collective punishment and an (admittedly rather low level) crime against humanity where the flotilla is a humanitarian mission with political overtones that people with vile agendas would like to exploit, the scales of overall morality are rather lopsided.

If the specific question you want an answer to is should the commandos be prosecuted for there actions then (unless something really unsavory comes to light) clearly not.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Which country forcefully boards in international waters?

The question is: which country forcefully boards in international waters at night using commandos rappelling from helicopters onto a ship that likely has no contraband?

 

[JollyRoger]

The question is: which country forcefully boards in international waters at night using commandos rappelling from helicopters onto a ship that likely has no contraband?

Israelist fundamentalists

 

[Sterf]

What about when some little tossers fly planes into tall buildings? When are you allowed to defend your civilians?

Did Palestinians fly planes into tall buildings? If not, you're being deliberately dishonest and this has nothing to do with anything whatsoever except to confuse the matter. It's a weak straw man at best.

 

[Whomp]

Moderator Action: Quick Warning Folks. These threads always tend to get testy. Personal attacks will not be acceptable so be careful what you post.

 

[Rumilus]

When Israel is purposely starving an entire people, blocking educative materials like pencils and papers, forbidding weelchairs, toys, musical instruments, any sort of product that is necessary for a somewhat functioning economy, anything they could use to rebuild their homes including tents to sleep under or even anything they could use to enjoy, destroying the economy since everything an economy needs is forbidden, making most than half of the population unemployed, how can you say that they direct illogical hatred towards those that inflict this suffering upon them? Please, do put yourself in the place of those that would suffer these consequences. Imagine you are born in a horrible worlds as that one is. How can you say that they are being unreasonable on any level? Even if they select the only government that promises to change this (I don't condone Hamas, this is for illustration).

Because it is armed conflict, and stopping the killing of civilians is the first priority, not their discomfort. You also completely ignore all the Israeli civilians who have over the years been blown to pieces. When the critics of Israel have a real and reasonable solution that stops the terrorism agaisnt Israeli civilians, Ill revise my opinion about the blockade and the siege.

 

[Rumilus]

Did Palestinians fly planes into tall buildings? If not, you're being deliberately dishonest and this has nothing to do with anything whatsoever except to confuse the matter. It's a weak straw man at best.

I want to see what is the level of violence when the bigger side can start thinking about when to stop the smaller side of inflicting casualties on its civilians.

 

[Rumilus]

I didnt say we should judge the commandos more harshly than the activists - baring, y'know, all the dead people which is rather a biggie - they are the pawns in the game.

Given that blockade is a collective punishment and an (admittedly rather low level) crime against humanity where the flotilla is a humanitarian mission with political overtones that people with vile agendas would like to exploit, the scales of overall morality are rather lopsided.

If the specific question you want an answer to is should the commandos be prosecuted for there actions then (unless something really unsavory comes to light) clearly not.

Fair enough, what about the people who ordered the mission who too thought they were acting in accordance to the law?

And I do like to mention something I thought we already agreed that there is no legal and binding court rule that the blockade is either legal or illegal crime against humanity. If the blockade is later on deemed legal, how can it be crime against humanity.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Because it is armed conflict, and stopping the killing of civilians is the first priority, not their discomfort. You also completely ignore all the Israeli civilians who have over the years been blown to pieces. When the critics of Israel have a real and reasonable solution that stops the terrorism agaisnt Israeli civilians, Ill revise my opinion about the blockade and the siege.

In other words, when you run out of excuses to support Israel's apartheid policies?


Link to video.

 

[JollyRoger]

Because it is armed conflict, and stopping the killing of civilians is the first priority

How is an armed boarding of a civilian vessel contributing to the stopping of the killing of civilians?

 

[GinandTonic]

Fair enough, what about the people who ordered the mission who too thought they were acting in accordance to the law?

And I do like to mention something I thought we already agreed that there is no legal and binding court rule that the blockade is either legal or illegal crime against humanity. If the blockade is later on deemed legal, how can it be crime against humanity.

Well if the ICC decides it is collective punishment it's a crime against humanity, and if they decide the blockade was legal than it's legal. Just like with any other case, but with more judges. Lots more judges.

The people who ordered the mission could theoretically be tried, but that would be unusual. A truth and reconciliation would be better even if a distant hope ATM.

 

[Rumilus]

How is an armed boarding of a civilian vessel contributing to the stopping of the killing of civilians?

The blockade is about preventing the smuggling of weapons.

 

[JollyRoger]

The blockade is about preventing the smuggling of weapons.

The only people that smuggled weapons onto the boat were the Israelis.

Oh, and they killed civilians. Nice way to prevent the killing of civilians.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobby: The soldiers should not have been there in the first place.

Many, including the Vice President, not to mention myself, think they should be. The fact that rockets are still being shot at Israel also says they should be.

Not so. If the blockade is illegal (it violates the one of the Laws of War, read into that what you will) as the flotilla-ers believed then there is no excuse for the Israeli boarding of a neutral ship in neutral territory. Such a boarding violates the Laws of War, specifically those that protect neutral nations and their territory.

Again, Gaza is still firing rockets and mortars at Israel as we speak. The blockade is perfectly legal as long as this status quo of armed conflict exists between Gaza and Israel. Its not a 'neutral' ship if its intention is to run the blockade.

As was pointed out earlier, according to the laws of war Israel is within its rights to prosecute this blockade as long as rockets are being fired at them out of Gaza.

Come on people. If your nation, ANY NATION, were being fired at on a daily basis they would do the SAME THING. Give it a rest already.

Invasion of privacy? Seems rather beside the point old man.

No, its precisely on point.

You miss the point. It does matter if it is a ship or a building. The ship is in international waters. It matters just as much as what country the building is in.

Sigh. Was the ship headed for some other port than Gaza? Was the ships destination unknown?

Give me a friggin break.

1) The Israelis only have a right to board the ship in international waters if the blockade is valid.

As long as rockets are being fired on Israel out of Gaza, its valid.

2) If the blockade is not valid an attempt to take a ship by force in international waters is illegal and everyone on the ship is entitled to resist.

Uhm. Hardly. Again, navies the world over board ships in international waters legally ALL THE TIME.

Secondly, NO, not everyone on board is entitled to resist. The crew can. Passengers? I just gave you proof where that isnt such a good idea, as doing so makes them legitimate targets under the law of war.

3) Saying "that law has been broken by the Yanks and the Limeys" does not change the law.

Who says this?

4) The retention of civilian protected status would depend on specifically it being piracy rather than simply illegal, but you know that civilians are allowed to resist pirates and remain civilians.

Balony. Now you are just spouting off nonsense. This isnt a piracy issue...it never was. The whole piracy thing is just a silly red herring and has no pertinent value in this discussion at all. None.

The IDF arent pirates. Get over it already. Here let me help.

Pirate:

Not a pirate:

Hopefully you will notice a few differences there...

Which country forcefully boards in international waters?

Uhm....pretty much all of them that have a navy?

Keeping in mind Israel's standpoint on not occupying Gaza, and there's no war going on according to Israel.

Thats not what the Israeli PM just said. Didnt you notice? Rockets being fired at Israel? Again?

 

[Sterf]

Because it is armed conflict, and stopping the killing of civilians is the first priority, not their discomfort. You also completely ignore all the Israeli civilians who have over the years been blown to pieces. When the critics of Israel have a real and reasonable solution that stops the terrorism agaisnt Israeli civilians, Ill revise my opinion about the blockade and the siege.

The real and reasonable solution to stop violence against Israel is obviously not condemning an entire people to suffer. When has that ever worked. Didn't work with Hitler, won't work now.
Do you deny any allegations against the Israeli people that Palestinians are driven out of their homes and cut of from their farms? I'm sensing a pattern here, that in any clear question I'm asking none of it is addressed and instead is obfuscated by completely false accusations against an entire people. You do realise that Hamas is only a few years in democratically elected power now and that if Israel really wanted to solve this whole thing they could've solved it years and years ago. Yet the only thing shown to date is a bloodthirsty vengeance towards what they believe their 3000 years old book entitles them to, and I'll say this anticipating a truckload of false allegations of anti-semitism despite my grandparents having survived the holocaust. Also, you haven't answered my question about what your worldview would be being born in Gaza, excluded from most forms of food, educative equipment like paper and pencils, stuff like wheelchairs and toys, building materials to rebuild and tents, etc...

 

[GinandTonic]

The blockade is about preventing the smuggling of weapons.

What about all the other items banned? Refusals to allow shipments of fresh mean and instant coffee have been bandied about.

In what possible way are these weapons? Building supplies and wheelchairs is harsh but almost comprehensible as dual-use, but no coffee? If they are anything like me a lack of a morning coffee will do nothing to improve their mood. An fresh meat? Israel is worried they will throw steaks at the IDF?