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Israel-Palestine: will there *ever* be a solution?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Jul 26, 2012.

  1. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    This chap doesn't think so (not surprising for a hardline Jewish settler in the West Bank). What's more interesting about his argument is that he favours a continuation of the status quo (= "occupation" in the anti-Israeli dictionary) and claims that pretty much everybody in the region has resigned themselves to that outcome. This means that the Palestinian Authority will remain basically a client state/colony of Israel forever.

    Do you think this is realistic? If not, what outcome do you think is the *most* realistic?
     
  2. Arwon

    Arwon

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    How convenient that the things which suit this dude just fine are the things which are not only eternally durable but all-round positive things for everyone!
     
  3. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    He's what he is. Let's not debate that, but the questions I've put forward.
     
  4. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Do you only want to talk about whether it's realistic, or can I comment on the rationalisations towards his pre-intended conclusions he puts forward?
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Within reason (it's obvious that his logic is, how to put it, somewhat lacking in the "common sense" department). But the first part is more important to me.
     
  6. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Chieftain

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    Settlement as a means of suppressing continuous warfare in my experience, is costly and inefficient, with the noted downside that when you decide an area is not worth policing, you still have to defend unpleasant settlements from continuous warfare that you don't want anymore.
     
  7. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    I'll just be short then. "rewarding those who aimed to destroy Israel" is nonsense. Then there are a boatload of assumptions which aren't supported but all are used to support his later conclusions.

    Ok, there's the case of cause and effect. He talks about how the checkpoints will disappear once the terrorism disappears. While just the fact of the checkpoints being there fuels the incentive towards terrorism. Whenever you restrict people, they'll push back. Always. So will he opt to remove the checkpoints? Of course not! First terrorism must end. And will terrorism end? Of course not! First the checkpoints have got to go.

    I can see why there are a lot of people who love to glorify the current situation. Indeed, the settlers living on land they have no business living on (which he poorly justifies in the start of the article), those in Israel, Palestine, Jordan, etc who are exploiting the conflict and deriving power from it would indeed love to see the current situation continue. Concessions should only be made by other people.

    So to your question, what outcome seems most realistic. I indeed don't see anyone who got to power on the back of the conflict have a change of heart. I don't see anyone giving in an inch out of fear to look 'weak' in a political environment where weakness is political suicide. If this only applied to one side, then getting rid of the violence while maintaining the status quo might be possible. The thing he overlooks is there are people who do not benefit from the status quo. Who suffer terribly from it. And they are the ones he wishes to do the compromising, while doing none of his own.

    All rationalised in a thin veneer of self-serving botty-water.
     
  8. Bakspatel

    Bakspatel Chieftain

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    I don't see a solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict to come. Ever.
    Setting aside that both parties have done a lot of unjustifiable things you cannot say that Israel is taking serious effort in establishing peace in the region. The very strict control over the Gaza, constant settlements in Palestine area, the construction of an iron curtain. Israel has been getting away with a lot of things a lot of times, and it doesn't look like it'll end anytime soon. Historical claims are nonsense: those people live there, its barbaric to claim their land and force the people out. How would you feel if a bulldozer pulverizes your home and to see that people who claim that its their land start settling there? No one would agree with that, and you'll have an increased chance for the recruitment of new terrorist that will aim to kill innocent Israeli's which gives Israel a new reason for a suppressing method.

    The only way I think a solution is possible is when Europe and the USA put some real pressure on Israel and threaten to stop financial support if they don't put some serious effort in the peace negotiations. Whenever they like it or not, the only way to end the circle of violence is when they accept that the Palestine are part of the area which they have to share with them. But that is unlikely to ever happen.
     
  9. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Yes, surprisingly, the settlers don't tend to defend themselves. One wonders why they would be settled there in the first place if they can't even do that.
     
  10. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Chieftain

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    Because they're spongers.
     
  11. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Howdy

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    edit: deleted. maybe I'll come back when I'm not so tired and malfunctioning and actually have a good post.
     
  12. Absolution

    Absolution Chieftain

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    The only solution is an agreement to found the Palestinian state on the territories they hold now. And then, we'll see about it's future.
    As for now, Israel can not allow itself to give away more territories to uncertain hands.
     
  13. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    See? As I said.

    The only solution is for them to compromise their position while we do ef all.
     
  14. wapamingo

    wapamingo Chieftain

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    There is a solution, but not a solution that is amicable to all parties.

    Israel will continue to settle and settle making any future shift in map impossible due to the logistical/humanitarian difficulty in attempting to resettle, plus who would financially compensate these people for their property? Palestinians dont have the money. So, the more Israelis are there the harder it is to ask for this land in any negotiation.

    Israelis (the government) are smart, very smart, and this guy (article author) is right.

    A 3 state solution is already a reality. Nothing will change from how things are progressing, there will be no more camp david talks, it is what it is. There will never be a peaceful solution other than what the Israelis dictate.
     
  15. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Chieftain

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    I disagree. I don't see Israels position as tenable in the long term.
    If they had the capacity to enforce their will entirely on the Palestinians, they would have done it a long time ago.

    As the OP says, these settlements are not constructed for economic, but for ideological purposes. That means that they're going to need support to remain viable. Israel is going to eventually have to come to the peace table, because these policies are going to leave it a failed state.
     
  16. wapamingo

    wapamingo Chieftain

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    Why would israel want to exert control over all of palestine/palestinians? They gave up on that when they gave them gaza and west bank. They know they cannot exert control over them and they never could, hence their solution of isolating them behind a wall and have war like crossing checks.

    Israel will never be a failed state, not for as long as there is westernr guiilt and there is a strong expat community
     
  17. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Chieftain

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    To stop terrorism, obviously.

    Yes, exactly. And this situation is untenable, and the settlement solution doubly so. It requires the Israeli government to indebt itself to people it doesn't want to, and strains it's finances in a way that it cannot afford in all circumstances.
     
  18. Absolution

    Absolution Chieftain

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    The checkpoints were built because the terrorism was uncontrollable.
    Therefore, as I said, first we'll have to see if they can really run their small state properly, and then we'll be able to grant them some favors, like removing parts of the wall and things like that.
    The barrier only reduces terrorism. Not increasing it. Which means that we are stepping in the right direction.
     
  19. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Eventually there will be a solution to the problem but it will be a great cost that it gets done.
     
  20. Janig

    Janig Chieftain

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    I recently read about an event called The Holocaust where countless Jews were persecuted. Israeli people now pride themselves in their military, and I imagine they appreciate the opportunity to test their military might. The Israel-Palestine conflict is about as close to a progressive war as I can imagine. The Gaza strip is beautiful in comparison to parts of Syria.
     

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