Israel turns out the lights on Gaza...again...

[Che Guava]

Every rocket you launch will mean lights out for 15 minutes!

Israel 'to cut Gaza power supply'

Israel's defence minister is preparing to approve cuts in the supply of electricity and fuel to Gaza to try to halt rocket attacks, officials say.

Ehud Barak is to meet with officials later on Thursday to discuss the temporary cuts, which will reportedly directly follow rocket attacks.

Israel supplies 60% of the electricity for Gaza's 1.5 million inhabitants.

Palestinian leaders responded to the threat by accusing Israel of inflicting collective punishment.

The cuts would be the latest measure to be adopted by Israel since it declared Gaza a "hostile entity" last month.

By formally declaring Gaza "hostile", Israel argues it is no longer bound by international law governing the administration of occupied territory to supply utilities to the civilian population.

But the position accepted by the international community is that Israel remains legally responsible for the coastal strip, despite withdrawing two years ago, because it still controls Gaza's borders, airspace and territorial waters.

Israel imposed an economic embargo on Gaza after the Islamist militant group, Hamas, seized control from the rival Fatah group in June. It is also limiting the movement of people in and out of the territory.

'No choice'

Although he is authorised to implement the sanctions, Mr Barak may also seek the approval of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and the security cabinet, officials said.

Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai, who led the team which formulated the plan, said Israel would "dramatically reduce" the power it supplied to Gaza over a period of several weeks.

"We are left with no choice but to take these steps. I assume they will have an effect, even if not immediately," he told Israeli Army Radio.

"The recommendation is to start disconnecting gradually, without causing anything that could create a humanitarian problem, like hospitals."

Qassam rockets are frequently fired from Gaza into southern Israel

Officials said the electricity would be cut at first for 15 minutes after each rocket attack and then for longer and longer periods.

Gen Vilnai said he hoped the gradual disconnection would encourage Gazans to produce their own electricity and no longer be dependent on Israel.

It is unclear how big an effect the power cuts will have, since many buildings have back-up generators.

About 120 megawatts out of the 200 megawatts of electricity used annually in Gaza are bought from and supplied by Israel directly. A further 17 megawatts are supplied by Egypt, while 65 megawatts is produced by a power station in Gaza.

'Exploiting human needs'

A spokesman for Hamas in Gaza said it would be unbowed by any further sanctions.

"International law requires that occupation forces take care of the needs of the occupied peoples," Sami Abu Zuhri said.

"Exploiting human needs to blackmail our people will never weaken us."

The Western-backed Palestinian Authority of President Mahmoud Abbas also reacted angrily to the plan.

"This decision is a form of collective punishment against our people in Gaza," Cabinet Secretary Saadi al-Kronz said in a statement.

The UN has previously warned Israel that it must not inflict collective punishment on Gaza's civilian population by cutting vital supplies and services.

In other developments on Thursday, two Palestinian militants were killed in a clash with Israeli troops in the southern Gaza Strip.

The armed wing of the Hamas, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, said the two men were its members.

link

And now for the discussion. Two questions jump to mind:

(1) Is this actually aform of collective punishment, and if so, is it justified?

(2) Do you think that Israel can really stop the rocket attacks by cutting power to the Gaza Strip?

 

[RedRalph]

1) clearly it is, and no collective punishment is

2) Pretty unlikely

 

[Bast]

1. Yes and Yes
2. Unfortunately, no.

 

[Patroklos]

1.) Yes. Yes.

2.) No.

You know its funny, the Palistinians could have had their own state for a decade now with schools, shops, security, futures. But no, shooting rockets and living is slums is more fun and glamorous. Sometimes you have realize when your hand is played as far as it will go, and take whats on the table.

 

[Arwon]

How does Israel think it hasn't lost already?

 

[Photi]

it's time for israel to declare no further expansion, give back the west bank, sue for peace and talk to hamas. the reason these things don['t happen is because israel feels it is not yet done expanding, and so the violence continues.

 

[scy12]

Well when you have such an admirable Human rights record such actions cause unfortunately no surprise.

 

[brainpan]

The disinformation here is staggering. Simply mind boggling.

Clearly, Israel is expected to supply power to a sworn enemy who's government actively promotes pure Jew hatred, especially from mosques and even children's programing.

No less amazing is the charge Israel is "expanding" and the insinuation it would not trade land for peace. Unbelievable. I guess noboby noticed when Israel cut the size of its territory in half to reach peace with Egypt.

"Israel has lost already." While this statement isn't tinged with the latent anti-Semitism that the unbalanced criticism of Israel usually is--nobody has much to say about Arab terror, just the Israeli response to it--it is no less bizarre than the rest of the comments thus far.

Israel has lost nothing except, perhaps, the fight to stop anti-Semitism, and the fight to be treated fairly by observers in the West (or anywhere, really).

 

[RedRalph]

sure, sure, any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. My Jewish mother, sister and step-Da would be appalled if they knew what an anti-se mite I am. but then again, theyre the ultimate self hating Jews - they criticise Israel too! True anti-semites

 

[brainpan]

That makes absolutely no sense. Every racist in the Deep South of America "has a black friend," and some of them are even "related" to blacks.

There is a neo-Nazi gang in Israel made up of Jews, but according to you they couldn't possibly be anti-Semitic or pass along anti-Semitic propoganda.

 

[RedRalph]

That makes absolutely no sense. Every racist in the Deep South of America "has a black friend," and some of them are even "related" to blacks.

Ive never been there, but I sincerely doubt this is true. In any case, do you or do you not consider any criticism of Israel to be anti-semetic?

There is a neo-Nazi gang in Israel made up of Jews, but according to you they couldn't possibly be anti-Semitic or pass along anti-Semitic propoganda.

OK, fair call, but you have to admit they were an utterly bizarre abberation.

 

[brainpan]

Ive never been there, but I sincerely doubt this is true.

It was such a common defense, that many consider its mere utterance a sign of racism.

In any case, do you or do you not consider any criticism of Israel to be anti-semetic?

Just the one-sided bigoted criticism.

OK, fair call, but you have to admit they were an utterly bizarre abberation.

It is crazy, but it lays to rest the notion that a persons ethnicity is a guarantee for or against certain behaviors.

 

[RedRalph]

It was such a common defense, that many consider its mere utterance a sign of racism.

I'll defer to you, I've never been there

Just the one-sided bigoted criticism.

Thats a matter of opinion. but I think calling all criticism of Israel anti-semitism does more to foster actualy anti-semitism than anything else. Its playing the race card. god knows maniacs find any amount of scum bag reasons to hate Jews, sadly the fact that so many Jews automatically classify criticism of Israel as racism is a valid one.

It is crazy, but it lays to rest the notion that a persons ethnicity is a guarantee for or against certain behaviors.

true. but you have to say, a Jew criticising Israel is 99.999% of the time not going to be doing so because they are anti-semetic

 

[skadistic]

1) yes and yes. They should be counter attacking but if they do that they the full furry of the liberal medias and the corrupt UN. The second they fight back some in OT will cry foul and call all Israelis criminals and actually support indiscriminate bombing of bombings. Even in the Turkey/Kurd you have some that say Turkey should just give in to the terrorist demands. I'm sure they would say the same here.

2) No one can stop the rockets but the terrorists who launch them. Either by them pulling their heads out of their asses ( that ain't gonna happen) or the systematic eradication by lethal retaliation by Israel ( thats not not gonna happen either because killing terrorist who hide amongst civilians ultimately get civilians killed and the UN will pass a million resolutions against Israel, not the terrorist just Israel.


In closing the idiot pally will keep building bombs instead of buildings will keep killing instead of planting crops and keep spreading the jew hate in its public square instead of educating their children in ways that will allow them to built up a state. And it will be the Israeli's fault.

 

[Arwon]

"Israel has lost already." While this statement isn't tinged with the latent anti-Semitism that the unbalanced criticism of Israel usually is--nobody has much to say about Arab terror, just the Israeli response to it--it is no less bizarre than the rest of the comments thus far.

Israel has lost nothing except, perhaps, the fight to stop anti-Semitism, and the fight to be treated fairly by observers in the West (or anywhere, really).

The occupation has, essentially, destroyed Israeli credibility in the world and gone a long way towards poisoning and polarising Israeli politics beyond repair, turning it into a pariah and something of a brutal and embarassing aberration from the liberal democratic norm, leaving it in a situation somewhat analogous to Spain under Franco or South Africa during Apartheid. Retaining and occupying the Territories was a massive mistake to make in the 1960s and 1970s and Israel's failure to finally resolve it either by withdrawing, annexing or creating a state continues to drag it down today and leave it with a massive identity crisis (I'm thinking chiefly of the conflict between secularists and the religious right) and hamstring it in every other area of affairs. There is no sense in which Israel can "win" in this situation.

Don't give me that anti-semitism crap, this is nothing Israeli intellectuals aren't saying today.

 

[aelf]

So Israel is not allowed to try and halt rocket attacks?

 

[Arwon]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Pfft.

 

[ArneHD]

So Israel is not allowed to try and halt rocket attacks?

Depriving a people of their livelihood is not a good way to stop extremism. You can't crush an idea, not with military force.

 

[aelf]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Pfft.

I didn't even refer to your post. I'm just asking a general question. To the layman, there is nothing wrong in Isreal finding means to try and halt or at least reduce the rocket attacks, even if you think it might not work.

The past is the past. It seems that Israel is interested in finding a solution. Is Hamas?

 

[Arwon]

OK, let's get more specific here. This policy and the confused reactions to it are pretty much exactly what I'm talking about with regards to the unresolvable contradictions and schizophrenia in Israeli society about the Territories.

What is the status of the territories? Enemy country? Subjugated and occupied land? De facto part of the Israeli state? The fact that this question can't be answered leads to situations like the present. If the occupied territories are enemy lands, as claimed earlier in the thread, then clearly they shouldn't be expected to be providing elecricity. But then, they were previously, which demonstrates that this isn't their status in Israeli eyes except when it suits them. If they're enemy lands, then why does Israel take so much advantage of cheap labor from the territories? Why does it selectively enforce its judicial system as it suits it, usually to the detriment of the populace of the territories? If it's not part of Israel then Israeli law shouldn't apply, and the converse, but this ambiguous "whatever suits us" situation is as destructive for Israel as it is for the people in the territories. And if the land is indeed part of Israel, then how can collective punishment such as demolitions and economic warfare and holding basic necessities for ransom be justified by a liberal democracy? Or is Israel abrograting its theoretical status as a liberal democracy and instituting a racially and ethnically based state where the outsiders just don't have rights?

The questions are endless, and it all goes back to Israel's inability to deal, in a fundamental way, with the question of its own identity and the corrolary to that, which is the relationship of that identity to the Territories.

You can even define this conflict neatly. The three Israels in conflict are Greater Israel, Democratic Israel or Jewish Israel. It can't be all three simultenously.

Basically the choice is: Pick 2. If you're going to be Greater Israel you can't be simulteneously Democratic and Jewish - either the Palestinians get Israeli citizenship and equality, and demographics removes the Jewish character of Israel, or Israel opts for an apartheid style setup in order to stay Jewish (this is of course closest to the status quo). Likewise, if it wants to be Democratic and Jewish it will have to give up all claims to Greater Israel and give up the territories. Until it can resolve this question internally it cannot begin to hope for peace and normality externally.

Personally I'm inclined to blame most of it on the Israeli religious right but then, that's just me.