Israel vs. Hamas - Thread III

[Formaldehyde]

Are you serious?

Let's take this one item at a time for those who may not be capable of seeing the obvious:

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.

Authoritarian? Layup.

"Highly concentrated and centralized power structures," in which political power is generated and maintained by a "repressive system that excludes potential challengers" and uses political parties and mass organizations to "mobilize people around the goals of the government";[2]
The following principles: "1) rule of men, not rule of law; 2) rigged elections; 3) all important political decisions made by unelected officials behind closed doors; 4) a bureaucracy operated quite independently of rules, the supervision of elected officials, or concerns of the constituencies they purportedly serve; 5) the informal and unregulated exercise of political power";[2]
Leadership that is "self-appointed and even if elected cannot be displaced by citizens' free choice among competitors" 6). Modern Democracy
No guarantee of civil liberties or tolerance for meaningful opposition;[2]
Weakening of civil society: "No freedom to create a broad range of groups, organizations, and political parties to compete for power or question the decisions of rulers," with instead an "attempt to impose controls on virtually all elements of society";[2] and
Political stability maintained by "control over and support of the military to provide security to the system and control of society; 2) a pervasive bureaucracy staffed by the regime; 3) control of internal opposition and dissent; 4) creation of allegiance through various means of socialization."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarianism

Nationalist? Layup. Both Israel and the US are waving the flag every chance they get. They claim their safety and security is threatened by rocks and homemade missiles in response to Israel breaking the peace treaty, and they will go to any extreme to make it stop regardless of the number of innocent civilians who are killed by "collateral damage". They are "right" and anybody who opposes them are "wrong". They perceive themselves as being "freedom fighters" while all their opponents are "terrorists".

Solving political and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence? Well, that one should be obvious to everybody. Right? See "freedom fighter vs. terrorist" for further details if you get confused over this one. And let's not forget the so-called "war on drugs".

Next sentence:

Fascist governments typically seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations, to defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation.

Seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations? There are no other countries which are not more prepared for armed conflict in the world today than the US and Israel are. Both spend an extraordinary amount of their GNP for "defense" when it is clearly not warranted because neither country face any dire threat from anybody.

To defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation? Once again, that one is a layup. Both claim to be defending themselves while engaging in offensive imperialism and genocide against those who oppose them. See the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the invasion and continuing occupation of both Iraq and Afghanistan for details.

Next sentence:

Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.

Aim to create a single-party state? Not so much. Instead, you have two predominate political parties that have far more similarities than they do differences. Take their fear and hatred of 'terrorist' Muslims and their lopsided staunch support for Israel regardless of what it does, for example.

Led by a dictator? You can technically claim this one isn't true either since the leader is elected by a majority of ignorant sheeple. But the result is the same.

A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it. GWB

Who seek unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race?

And it is our duty as loyal Americans to shut up once the fighting begins... I said that a loyal American should hold on to sincere opinions but should exercise responsibility in expressing them if it hurts the morale of our troops or gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Bill O'Reilly

Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. GWB

Next Sentence:

Fascist movements commonly oppose: class conflict, communism, conservatism, democracy, individualism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism, liberalism, and pacifism.

Oppose class conflict? See the above quotes.

Oppose communism? Layup.

Oppose individualism? Only if you aren't a staunch supporter of their one-sided definition of what a "terrorist" is.

Oppose internationalism? Layup. Both make a traveshamockery of the UN on a regular basis, and neither are willing to even entertain the opinions of the rest of the world which are usually opposed to them and their foreign policies.

Oppose laissez-faire capitalism? The Bush administration certainly did with its huge government subsidies and favoritism directed towards particular corporations. I don't know enough about Israeli business practices to render a judgement on this one, but I bet they don't cater as a whole too much to non-Jewish businesses.

Oppose liberalism? Layup.

Oppose pacifism? Layup.

Next sentence:

In addition to explicit opposition to these ideologies and systems, fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.

Ever heard of Sami Al-Arian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al-Arian

Or any other Muslim who claims to support a "terrorist organization" other than the US or Israel?

How about fair and balanced reporting of the so-called war in Iraq?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/med-m05.shtml

And with the Israelis, it's once again a layup:

http://www.indexoncensorship.org/20...ger-over-continued-censorship/comment-page-1/

So, technically, neither country can be considered to be a true fascist state since they give lip service to elected officials who typically gain office by convincing enough ignorant sheeple to vote for them. But the result is the same. And the dead giveaway is how much vehemence is directed towards communism while little or none is directed towards other fascist states which the US frequently supports:

http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521678537

 

[MobBoss]

Why did you give this reply to this statement

Your reply seems to have missed the point.

I understood the point of the trollish comment was that I hadnt ever had chemistry in high school because the Army accepts dropouts. If my refutation of that wasnt up to your standards of debate, I apologize.

Are you stating that your knowledge of science is superior to many of your other knowledges, if not most?

I said its one of my better subjects because I like science, always have. Do I claim to be an expert? No. Is there a purpose in your question to me saying its one of my better subjects?

 

[devilhunterred]

Why did you give this reply to this statement


When it was prefaced by the following?



Your reply seems to have missed the point.



Are you stating that your knowledge of science is superior to many of your other knowledges, if not most?

Yea, tell me about it.

MobBoss has done nothing but avoiding the main argument and going around in circles arguing that M825A1 is a smoke round so it's perfecty legal.

When I retorted :

"You cannot state that WP shells are perfectly legal if being used for smoke generating purposes while completely ignoring its highly lethal incendiary properties especially when used anywhere near proximity of highly dense civilian population in Gaza."

MobBoss replied: "Yes I can, and i do."

Yup, I took chemistry in high school. We even ignited a piece of WP in my school to view its reaction. Guess what? I didnt burn for 36 hours. But it did fizz and pop a lot for a few minutes while creating a lot of smoke.?

I see, so you knew everything about WP. That's why you dismissed my accurate description of WP burning uncontrollably on skin, seeping through the flesh, turning body parts into ashes and skin starts to peel off slowly, penetrating all materials of clothing, and calling it: "too much Hollywood movies".

Kid, here's a hint........it didn't burn on you for 36 hours uncontrollably maybe because the WP wasn't caught on your skin. DUH.

The chemical reaction intensity of WP also is dependant hugely on its ammount. Since it's a high school lab, the WP that were being experimented must be in a very small ammount, i would say probably around 0.5-1 mg. It wouldn't be enough to start a lethal incendiary effect. The WP you experimented with was also in a controlled enviornment where its consumption of the surrounding oxygen is very limited, that's why instead of burning you, your class and your prof all into crisp, it merely sizzles out and turns into smoke.

You should thank your prof that he saved your life.


Most posters in this forum already have a comprehensive idea of where his intelligence lies.

That's why previous posters like brennan, Mandeville, noncomformist, Rashimnos, RedRalphWiggum, Sidhe, Verbose, innonimatu, and countless others have already given up arguing with MobBoss. The way MobBoss keeps going on in circles "smoke round is a smoke round, so it's legal despite it tremendous incendiary collateral damage to civilians and use of WP as the smoke generating chemicals that are now being launched into Gaza population centers", it would probably be 2050 A.D before he finally admit his defeat, very much like the Japs, no surrender until they **** their pants

And yea, most posters here acknowledges MobBoss' "superior scientific knowledge" too. You know, that's why he landed in a dead end desk job in the military for the past 20 years with the sole pastime of posting in civfanatics forum

Moderator Action: Continued Personal Attacks. Warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Patroklos]

So it's settled then. Devilhunterred has been soundly boot stomped at every turn and made to look like a know it all temper tantrum prone third grader.

Honestly, congratulations Mobboss, that is one of the most patient and polite as well as thourogh snip I have ever seen on these boards.

Let's take this one item at a time for those who may not be capable of seeing the obvious:

Dude, the most difininitve rebuttal of your ******** wannabe edgy black trenchcoated can't get laid in college BS just took place on worldwide live national television.

I am sorry the girls don't like you, but the acne will clear up eventually, there is no need to play the spiteful misunderstood assumed genius.

 

[Trajan12]

I'm thinking they should have stayed in it this time. All of this start-stop warring must take its toll on the population. I imagine it would be much wiser to just endure a long period of war and then a long period of peace. And since Israel will only invade more, anything else is simply delaying the inevitable.

 

[LordRahl]

Here's a little video for all Hamas/Hezbollah supporters and apologists. You know who you are.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=94a_1232419313

This indiscriminate targeting of civilians is why I fully support Israel bombing those savages back to Stone Age (which is not far from where they are right now anyway)...

 

[MobBoss]

Yea, tell me about it.

See, El_Mac....you are encouraging him here.

MobBoss has done nothing but avoiding the main argument and going around in circles arguing that M825A1 is a smoke round so it's perfecty legal.

This....is false. I dont see how you can say I have avoided anything when I have literally written pages on this subject.

When I retorted :

"You cannot state that WP shells are perfectly legal if being used for smoke generating purposes while completely ignoring its highly lethal incendiary properties especially when used anywhere near proximity of highly dense civilian population in Gaza."

MobBoss replied: "Yes I can, and i do."

Please name me a weapon being used in Gaza that is not highly lethal. Again, the smoke rounds incendiary properties are secondary to its purpose. Secondary. Just like fires started from an HE round (which can occur) are secondary to its primary purpose as well.

Most posters in this forum already have a comprehensive idea of where his intelligence lies.

Insulting and trollish once more.

That's why previous posters like brennan, Mandeville, noncomformist, Rashimnos, RedRalphWiggum, Sidhe, Verbose, innonimatu, and countless others have already given up arguing with MobBoss. The way MobBoss keeps going on in circles "smoke round is a smoke round, so it's legal despite it tremendous incendiary collateral damage to civilians and use of WP as the smoke generating chemicals that are now being launched into Gaza population centers", it would probably be 2050 A.D before he finally admit his defeat, very much like the Japs, no surrender until they **** their pants

I can give similar numbers of posters in this thread that agree with my perspective. I am not here to make you happy about it, just to present the facts. The information I have put out speaks for itself.

And yea, most posters here acknowledges MobBoss' "superior scientific knowledge" too.

Again, EL_Mac, dont encourage this guy. He is going to take your comments as an endorsement of his position and his tone.

You know, that's why he landed in a dead end desk job in the military for the past 20 years with the sole pastime of posting in civfanatics forum and demonstrating his "intelligenence", "reasoning capability" and scientific knowledge to us university grads, high schoolers, college grads and 8th graders who obvious had far more education

Again, simply more trolls and insults that are not even worth replying to.

Moderator Action: Report and move on, then

 

[JohnRM]

The UN is NOT the police. The UN is a bad joke.

The UN was a bad joke in 1944. Now, it is a dreadful nightmare.

 

[JohnRM]

Israel should occupy Gaza and create conditions where the people either cooperate and take part in rebuilding their country, giving their children a real education, and commiting to peace, or they do not cooperate and they perish. Payment for labor ought only be given in credit for food and other supplies and the government should be administered by the IDF.

 

[happy_Alex]

I think this article sums up the situation quite elequently:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

Israel and the US have already lost this war now that many Jews are starting to take the side of the oppressed in this particular situation - the Palestinians. Such is the fate of fascism in a truly free world regardless of whom the proponents might happen to be.

QFT that is such a right-on quote, and many so called mature posters in this debate would do well to hit the history books

 

[happy_Alex]

You don't think that targeting members of the government which is calling for war is 'legitimate'? But it's the one getting the weapons and authorising their use!

OK well lets talk about some other illegitimacies then. The massacre of children and other non-combatants is illegitimate. Israel's occupation and settlement of Arab lands is illegitimate. The blockade of Gaza is illegitimate. Israel's possession of Atomic weapons is illegitimate. And don't even think about responding to my post without addressing these illegitimacies first.

 

[Patroklos]

Ummmm, in case you haven't notices this is the third thread of a continuing discussion. Your rather quaint observations would have belonged in posts 1-100, where I suggest you go back and read, and not in post 2000+.

 

[happy_Alex]

Ummmm, in case you haven't notices this is the third thread of a continuing discussion. Your rather quaint observations would have belonged in posts 1-100, where I suggest you go back and read, and not in post 2000+.

Are you talking to me?

 

[Abaddon]

Until the place is nothing but uninhabitable gravel, I doubt there will be peace.

 

[Dachs]

Until the place is nothing but uninhabitable gravel, I doubt there will be peace.

Nah, give it to the Turks again. They did a pretty good job.

 

[Abaddon]

Are there other nations "tetchY" with Israel, or IF Gaza became part of Israel, would that solve things a tad?

 

[RalofTyr]

Everyone's screaming, HAMAS started it because they fired a few rockets. No one knows or understands the root causes of the conflict. If you did, you'd know that HAMAS didn't start it because they fired a few rockets. The rocket fire is in retaliation for Israeli attacks. Those that choose not to understand the region choose ignorance.

This indiscriminate targeting of civilians is why I fully support Israel bombing those savages back to Stone Age (which is not far from where they are right now anyway)...

So you going to answer one act of barbarity with another act of barbarity by indiscriminately targeting civilians and bombing those, "Savages" back to the stone age?

They are not far from the Stone Age because Israel has taken everything from them.

2 things wrong with these 2 statements.

1) Hamas has been firing these rockets for YEARS and UN has done NOTHING. There was only so long they could wait. note that the rocket count was at 8800+. how much longer should they have waited before defending their sovereign soil from the GOVERNMENT of another territory? its not like lebanon where Hezbollah was "merely" a terrorist group, Hamas is the GOVERNMENT. so its like saying they didn't wait for the police if they were a minority in certain hotspots at the turn of the century (Black/American South, Jew/Russia, etc.) - THEY WEREN'T COMING TO HELP ISRAEL.

The police won't come if you don't call them.

2) Hamas admitted they do. please try again?

No. They haven't. A news report taken out of context by an unknown official of dubious authority implied that, admitted so.

 

[El_Machinae]

OK well lets talk about some other illegitimacies then. The massacre of children and other non-combatants is illegitimate. Israel's occupation and settlement of Arab lands is illegitimate. The blockade of Gaza is illegitimate. Israel's possession of Atomic weapons is illegitimate. And don't even think about responding to my post without addressing these illegitimacies first.

I agree that the blockade is ill-advised. But even if Hamas has legitimate reasons to be at war with Israel, that does not stop Isreal from having legitimate avenues of self-defense.

 

[MidnightTempest]

Everyone's screaming, HAMAS started it because they fired a few rockets. No one knows or understands the root causes of the conflict. If you did, you'd know that HAMAS didn't start it because they fired a few rockets. The rocket fire is in retaliation for Israeli attacks. Those that choose not to understand the region choose ignorance.

By arguing with "who started it first" won't go anywhere.

If we have to go back to the roots, it's in 1949 that Israel officially became a nation by UN, and the neighbouring Arab nations immediately attacked Israel. Their reason was that the Jewish were taking over the land their Muslim Palestinian breathrens have been living on for millenia since the Jewish diaspora in 800 BC.

And Israel's reason for taking over the land of the Palestinians was that they need a state to call home after the Holocaust. International community was compassionate and siding with Israel then because of what the Jews had recently been through durying WWII.

Now it seems as if with the support of US, Israel has risen to be nothing short of a local bully of the region, and international community has since began to shift their compassion towards to Palestinian refugees and the Arabs.

Arguments such as "Hamas rockets fired first into Israel, that's why Israel invaded Gaza," or "Hamas rockets fired into Israel because Israel attacked them previously" just won't get anywhere.

Arguing whether the Jews or Arabs have more rights to the land of Jerusalem won't solve anything either. It's simply a never-ending debate. It's almost as if debating whether oragne or apple tastes better.

The only way to have lasting peace in ME is to find a common compromise concerning with Israeli's and Palestinians' borders. Palestinians and Arabs are obviously unsatisfied with Israel's territories that it has illegitimately expanded against the initial UN proposal in 1949. Israel must abide with the 1949 UN proposal and give up its conquered territories from Palestinians.

Arabs must learn to live as neighbours with the Jews. It's a hard fact they must accept. And of course, vice versa, Jews must accept that if they choose to live in Israel, they must live with surrounding Arabs and Muslim nations.

Lastly, Israel must build up and develop Palestine and provide assistance to the 7 million homeless Palestinian refugees so that they can rebuild new homes and start their lives anew.

Slowly but surely, as the Arab nations and Israel starts to build friendly relations and tension in the region has evaporated, Israel can de-militiarize and Palestine abolishes its arsenal of AK and RPG.

These suggestions may sound simple, but I would be surprised if they can be achieved within my life time.

 

[MidnightTempest]

Everyone's screaming, HAMAS started it because they fired a few rockets. No one knows or understands the root causes of the conflict. If you did, you'd know that HAMAS didn't start it because they fired a few rockets. The rocket fire is in retaliation for Israeli attacks. Those that choose not to understand the region choose ignorance.

By arguing with "who started it first" won't go anywhere.

If we have to go back to the roots, it's in 1949 that Israel officially became a nation by UN, and the neighbouring Arab nations immediately attacked Israel. Their reason was that the Jewish were taking over the land their Muslim Palestinian breathrens have been living on for millenia since the Jewish diaspora in 800 BC.

And Israel's reason for taking over the land of the Palestinians was that they need a state to call home after the Holocaust. International community was compassionate and siding with Israel then because of what the Jews had recently been through durying WWII.

Now it seems as if with the support of US, Israel has risen to be nothing short of a local bully of the region, and international community has since began to shift their compassion towards to Palestinian refugees and the Arabs.

Arguments such as "Hamas rockets fired first into Israel, that's why Israel invaded Gaza," or "Hamas rockets fired into Israel because Israel attacked them previously" just won't get anywhere.

Arguing whether the Jews or Arabs have more rights to the land of Jerusalem won't solve anything either. It's simply a never-ending debate. It's almost as if debating whether oragne or apple tastes better.

The only way to have lasting peace in ME is to find a common compromise concerning with Israeli's and Palestinians' borders. Palestinians and Arabs are obviously unsatisfied with Israel's territories that it has illegitimately expanded against the initial UN proposal in 1949. Israel must abide with the 1949 UN proposal and give up its conquered territories from Palestinians.

Arabs must learn to live as neighbours with the Jews. It's a hard fact they must accept. And of course, vice versa, Jews must accept that if they choose to live in Israel, they must live with surrounding Arabs and Muslim nations.

Lastly, Israel must build up and develop Palestine and provide assistance to the 7 million homeless Palestinian refugees so that they can rebuild new homes and start their lives anew.

These suggestions may sound simple, but I would be surprised if they can be achieved within my life time.