Israel VS Palestine, who do you support?

[trader/warrior]

The wall, like the highways, were built to further isolate the Palestinians, and impede their movement between settlements.

It does do that, but do you really think the Israelis are so evil that that was the only thing they had in mind in building it?

It really surprises me how outrightly evil some people think Israelis are... Most of their actions in my mind are well intentioned but often very misguided and sometimes distorted by radicals.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Just declare Hamas an illegal terrorist organization (Its not really a political organization) and execute as many of its members as possible. Don't allow Hamas to be placed on the ballot.

Hamas commands the loyalty of the people, because they express their grievances in the only way they have left. You can't chop off the head of Hamas, because others will simply rise to take their place. Best way to get rid of Hamas is to undermine their loyalty, which means making the lives of Palestinians better.

It does do that, but do you really think the Israelis are so evil that that was the only thing they had in mind in building it?

The only thing? No. But did they intend it? Almost certainly. Its destroys the cohesion of Palestinian society, and more importantly, breaks down the communication system that allowed mass-strikes and protests that so characterized the first intifada.

It really surprises me how outrightly evil some people think Israelis are... Most of their actions in my mind are well intentioned but often very misguided and sometimes distorted by radicals.

Its like claiming Americans are evil because of their imperialism. The leader believe in it, and there are many people who support it and believe in it. Doesn't mean all Americans do. I never suggested that "the Israeli" was evil.

 

[trader/warrior]

The only thing? No. But did they intend it? Almost certainly. Its destroys the cohesion of Palestinian society, and more importantly, breaks down the communication system that allowed mass-strikes and protests that so characterized the first intifada.

As do the checkpoints, setlements (outside the wall), military zones and Israeli exclusive highways. And I think some of those are worse than the wall. Face that for the forseeable future Israeli security must be taken into concern, and I think a wall is less intrusive than outright occupation (and both really bad). Drastic action is needed in this conflict, but it can't always favor the palestinians on every issue. In the short term a too fast releasing of the "chains" around palestine could benefit the radicals unleashing a new worse round of attacks and counterattacks worsening the whole situation. Look what happened when they pulled out of gaza.

I see how the wall is almost an outright annexation and repressive to the palestinians, but I think it has been a bit overblown compared to other just as bad or worse issues.

 

[BurnEmDown]

The Israeli exclusive highways weren't always exclusive, they were turned exclusive because the Palestinians used them as places where they can attack Israelis in ambushes, etc.

Just a few months ago an Israeli exclusive highway was turned not-Israeli exclusive, and a few days later there was a terror attack by Palestinians against Israelis there.

 

[boogaboo]

Except it's Israel which went and crapped all over the borders by building in on the Palestinians side. It gobbles up about something around 10% of the territory of West Bank by now. A wall on the Israeli side, by all means, no problem at all. This is different.

Yes, Israel has crapped settlements in PA side, which is :
A. Wrong.
B. Mostly ancient history - It was done mostly in the late 60s and 70s.

The Palestinians also crapped cities (like, Um El Phahem, whatd'you know!) inside Israel, and there is no build freeze there

In short, until there is a border between 2 states, it is quite obscure to rule a build illegal and stop life for all inhabitants.

Most settlements nowadays (last 10 years or so) must be in what Israel sees as it's own in any agreement. Right, the PA don't agree, but we can not freeze building in Ariel, for example, since it is an Israeli city that cannot move. We can give other territories in an agreement... or struggle forever over the spot.

 

[civver_764]

To be honest, I think the Israelis would have happily handed the whole area back, if it were not for the relentless suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, sniping and rocket attacks they have been exposed to. I don't think any self-respecting people are going to hand back territory that was taken in self-defence during a war to a people who have shown no real commitment to peace or mutual respect.

It's not like Israel started that war, right? It's not like before that point Israel had destroyed 80% of the Palestinian villages that existed prior to 1948. It's not like Israel had displaced 700,000 Palestinians and denied them the right to return.

Do the Arabs there deserve to be displaced? Of course many of them don't. But a lot of them will have voted for parties such as Hamas [they had their chance at democracy and spat at that] and given aid and comfort to terrorists and their organisations.

So because they voted the wrong way in an election they deserve to have their homes destroyed? Grow up. Not to mention Israel's been doing this crap long before Hamas even existed.

Of course, those Arabs who do stand up and complain about the terrorist organisations are likely to receive a beating, knee-capping, job loss, arrest and even torture or death at the hands of their fellow citizens. It is harsh on them - really harsh - but it can't all be left to Israel to clean up and sort out. The international community has to step in and defend those Arabs who are innocent, which begins with protecting their democratic rights and their right to have a voice in their own political process.

Because Israel never tortured anyone, mirite? Israel never imprisoned thousands of Palestinians indefinitely without charge either, right? Oh wait they did.

But just try and bring up human rights in Palestine - people don't want to listen. They want to blame Israel, and they don't see how important democracy and free speech inside Palestine is for resolving this problem. The terrorists do - which is why they make sure to silence their own people, so they can carry on using them as pawns in Jihad. Fundamentally I think it is the Palestinians who need to do the reforming and the current trend of blaming Israel is very shortsighted, misguided and counter-productive. The pressure needs to be directed at Palestine where it is urgently needed.

Are you denying Israel violates the human rights of Palestinians? Seriously? Aren't you supposed to be Mr. Property rights?

Well, let me say this, unless God specifically tells them to "Take their land back" I don't think they should just do so, but in their minds "God-given" MIGHT have something to do with it.

I don't think we should support Israel "Because they are the Chosen Nation" though. I think we should support them because they are a Democracy. Not because they are "The Chosen Nation." God made it clear that if they DIDN'T follow him they would be destroyed anyway...

The more you justify the suffering of Palestinians with the bible the worse your religion looks.

Honestly, what Israel SHOULD do is invade Palestine, execute their Hamas overlords (As a terrorist organization, they don't have a right to a trial, but give them one anyway just to show we are the better people), and liberate them.

Oh my god...

Israel should liberate Palestine. I've heard it all.

Then they can either give them their own MODERATE state or autonomous region, or give them citizens rights. I don't really care which. But Israel invading Palestine is wise because they are run by terrorists, who are also responsible for the human rights situation.

No they are run by Israel. Israel occupies them and have done so for the last 43 years. What don't you get about this?

 

[Ajidica]

The big thing with Palestine, which makes it different then other invasions, is:

1. Israel ALREADY wants control of the land. They could easily make Palestine an autonomous region, with its own government, but still have enough control to prevent parties like Hamas from winning elections.

So you are in favor of unfree elections?

2. Palestine has literally no standing military, they can't really stop an invasion.

Odd. Didn't Britain think the same thing about us in 1776?

4. Liberation invasions work when done right anyway.

Course they do. That is why I was unable to find any mention of them in your UN thread. Best you got was Iraq which is still a basket case.
Any invasion of Palestine by and outside force to remove Hamas would almost inevitably result in a nuttier and more violent group rising up.
The only way to get peace over there is to get the Palestianians to quit giving support to them. That isn't easy, as Israel isn't doing the best with the fairly stringent blockade, continous settlement building, and other questionable policy decisions.

 

[Verbose]

Just declare Hamas an illegal terrorist organization (Its not really a political organization) and execute as many of its members as possible. Don't allow Hamas to be placed on the ballot.

Here's the problem. The Hamas is as much an idea as an organisation. If you try to make war on ideas (even if its a bad one), you will tend to lose.

 

[Verbose]

Problem is that the wall is built to protect the israelis, not the israeli state, so if they excluded the settlements it would have very little effectiveness at stopping terror as they would just attack the settlements. Thats what I remember Boogaboo telling me anyway.

And there is little doubt the wall has been effective. It's a really difficult freedom vs security issue. Personally I think the wall will worsen the conflict in the long term, though.

Seems about the size of it. The fundamental problem being that half-million settlers constituting de facto occupation and making a mockery of the concept of borders to Israel. Function-wise the wall is half-decent response to an actual problem. It also happens to be a compounded land-grab.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

B. Mostly ancient history - It was done mostly in the late 60s and 70s.

The largest expansion was under Netanyahu's first administration, only a bit more than a decade ago.

 

[boogaboo]

The largest expansion was under Netanyahu's first administration, only a bit more than a decade ago.

It appears you are right, but I suspect that was mainly enlargement of existing settlements, not many new ones.
Anyway, I never voted for the guy

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It appears you are right, but I suspect that was mainly enlargement of existing settlements, not many new ones.
Anyway, I never voted for the guy

According to some guys here, that doesn't make any difference. Since you live in a country in which this guy won the elections, you are directly responsible for the actions that guy's government takes.

Yeah, I thought it was loony when I heard it too

Those darn republicans and their commie president

 

[Silurian]

It appears you are right, but I suspect that was mainly enlargement of existing settlements, not many new ones.
Anyway, I never voted for the guy

A few figures about the West Bank

Population
Number of settlements
Increase in settler population per year




Pop Settlements Pop increase
1980 4000 3
1981 3100 1 -23%
1982 14536 20 369%
1983 8400 5 -42%
1985 37441 37 346%
1986 44073 39 18%
1987 50474 42 15%
1988 55772 43 10%
1989 61985 46 11%
1990 70844 53 14%
1991 82865 64 17%
1992 94834 75 14%
1993 110066 105 16%
1994 124005 110 13%
1995 137466 110 11%
1996 139453 116 1%
1997 152277 116 9%
1998 165540 118 9%
1999 174405 118 5%
2000 191125 118 10%
2001 201674 118 6%
2002 212218 118 5%
2003 221898 119 5%
2004 233471 118 5%
2005 247230 119 6%
2006 261537 119 6%
2007 276045 119 6%

The population of the settlements does seem to be growing very fast at 6%.

Israels growth rate is 1.66% (not sure if this includes West Bank)

Palestinians 2.22%
USA 0.97%
UK 0.42%

 

[boogaboo]

As Ziggy said, I do NOT take responsibility for those settlements - they didn't ask my opinion

I want to ask those who think Israel is some kind of criminal.. why is this more important than, say, the Turks occupation of the Kurds and half of Cyprus, Mexico not restoring the Aztecs and so forth?

There was a war, imposed on Israel, so land was occupied.
Not everyone agrees to the settlements, and this includes about half of Israel's population.
Sadly, the extremists on both sides rule the streets. Apes. On both sides.

 

[GhostWriter16]

So you are in favor of unfree elections?

Free elections. Doesn't mean we have to let terrorists run in them.

Course they do. That is why I was unable to find any mention of them in your UN thread. Best you got was Iraq which is still a basket case.
Any invasion of Palestine by and outside force to remove Hamas would almost inevitably result in a nuttier and more violent group rising up.

I actually remember saying Germany and Japan. You didn't accept those.

 

[Lone Wolf]

the Turks occupation of the Kurds and half of Cyprus, Mexico not restoring the Aztecs and so forth?

The Aztecs example is just silly, unless you're talking to the "JeWs ShOuLd LeAvE bAcK tO eUrOpE!!!!" people.

Turks occupy the Turkish part of the island, and, from what I know, most of the local population is in favour of their control. The Kurdistan problem is iffy, but at least Kurds do have fundamentally the same rights as other Turkish people - Kurdistan is not in the same politically weird state as Palestine is.

I don't think that the Palestinian people are purely victims and have no responsibility for their current fate at all, but I do think that fundamentally, the situation in which the Palestinian territories are in some weird half-colonial state is unacceptable.

 

[Silurian]

As Ziggy said, I do NOT take responsibility for those settlements - they didn't ask my opinion

I want to ask those who think Israel is some kind of criminal.. why is this more important than, say, the Turks occupation of the Kurds and half of Cyprus, Mexico not restoring the Aztecs and so forth?

There was a war, imposed on Israel, so land was occupied.
Not everyone agrees to the settlements, and this includes about half of Israel's population.
Sadly, the extremists on both sides rule the streets. Apes. On both sides.

I agree that you are not responsible for the Settlements in the same way that a lot of the Palestinians are not responsible for Hamas. (And Hamas and the Settlements are not the same thing)

The Israeli Palestinian conflict is more important to many people, but not everyone, for many reasons; for example in no order of importance.

The holocaust – European and US guilt
The holocaust and aftermath is taught in many western schools.
The UK and US role in the formation of Israel
Racism towards Jews
Israel is a western democracy (within the pre1967 borders) so is expected to live by the rules of a western democracy.
Pro Israeli organisations are active in politics in a number of countries especially the USA.
Israel was founded at the end of the European colonial era and is viewed as a colonial relic.
Many people know Israeli’s or have a small link to Israel.

The Kurds have been in Turkey since its formation. Turkey is not viewed as a western democracy by many peoples just a better Middle Eastern one.
Turkey occupies an area of Cyprus that was occupied before the invasion mainly by Turkish Cypriots. The Cypriot conflict may be on the way to being solved if they hold another referendum. Few people have knowledge of the Kurds or the Cypriot conflict due to the history of the conflicts.

Regarding Mexico is there an issue other than a rich poor problem.
From Wiki

In the 1921 Census, however, the government did include a question about racial identification.[216] Some 60% of the population identified themselves as being of mixed racial descent, 30% as indigenous, and 10% as white

Other counties have had a war been occupied then the occupied territories given up. Such as East Timor occupied by Indonesia from 1975 to 1999.

The Apes on both sides make better viewing than the people who want peace.

 

[Dachs]

Turks occupy the Turkish part of the island, and, from what I know, most of the local population is in favour of their control.

You know how everybody's jumping on Israel's ass about the settlements in the West Bank?

Yeah, a crap ton of the Turks in northern Cyprus are there because of basically the same reason.

 

[Ajidica]

Free elections. Doesn't mean we have to let terrorists run in them.

How can an election be truely free if you ban people from running?

I actually remember saying Germany and Japan. You didn't accept those.

I didn't accept those as they weren't 'wars of liberation and to spread democracy'. I hardly think that has to be pointed out.

 

[Dachs]

If you believe Woodrow Wilson, the First World War was to make the world safe for democracy...