Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[YonatanBlum]

I just don't see the two-state solution working. Where are the drawn?

The Palestinians would have to make some concessions which they are not very eager to make, such as only receiving ninety-some percent of the West Bank. Only thing I see no clear compromise to is East Jerusalem.

Of course, the Palestinians have never wanted to "give-up" any discussion-points whatsoever. This is why I think the perpetuation of the status-quo is by far the most likely future scenario. What I mean when I say that the two-state solution is the only realistic one is that the two-state solution is the only compromise that can be achieved in the future. Other "peace" scenarios are merely wishful thinking on the part of the Palestinians or Israelis.

 

[Ajidica]

Ajidica
You seem to "play the Roman" way too well...

What? I expect a western, liberal democracy to obey certain ground rules and abide by the Geneva Convention? I expect all to do the same. Israel, America, Russia, UK, ect.
I would also appreciate being linked to a secular site, not one that emphesises basing political decisions on the Torah. Israel is a secular state, not a Jewish Theocracy.

What I meant by my question was - please bring up a similar list to what I posted - with details that would show documented civilian Pals "killed by suicide bombers in a car" or "killed while driving to the school" or "children blown in a bus" etc.
CAN YOU?

I don't have a list, but do you mean to tell me the IDF has never killed innocent civilians? Invasion of Gaza three years ago, and they try artillery shelling in heavily populated areas.

Actually, what you say is quite similar to what Baltics say about Hitler and Stalin.
They claim that occupation by Russia (which resulted in massive deportations to Siberia) is EQUAL to the Holocaust (Nazi genocide against Jews).
Which means that they equal DEPORTATION (chance to survive maybe 80%) to EXTERMINATION (chance to survive maybe 0.1%).
Not to mention, that Russians DIDN'T deport people FOR JUST BEING OF A SPECIFIC NATION - it was on a personal basis.

To be frank, unless you were a Jew, Gypsie, or Homosexual Nazi occupation was not much worse than Soviet Occupation. The Soviets are slightly better as they deported political dissidents regardless of their background.
I really don't get the relevance of deportation to Israel continuing to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, forcing Palestinians out of their homes.

Thug
They don't want peace with Israel - they simply don't want Israel.

Not true. If Israel would quit blockading them, shelling them, and forcing them into denser and denser populated area, most would probably quit fighting. The majority of Palestinians are generaly fed up with the fighting and only keep fighting because they know it calls attention to them.

Will Israel give up the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza?

 

[civ2]

Ajidica the Roman Palestinian
I edited the above post a lot - please check it again.

What? I expect a western, liberal democracy to obey certain ground rules and abide by the Geneva Convention? I expect all to do the same. Israel, America, Russia, UK, ect.

Um, what about PALESTINE???

I would also appreciate being linked to a secular site, not one that emphesises basing political decisions on the Torah. Israel is a secular state, not a Jewish Theocracy.

Well, that's why there still is Palestine - according to Torah Law it should've been "clarified" a very long time ago (preventing casualities from BOTH sides).

I don't have a list, but do you mean to tell me the IDF has never killed innocent civilians? Invasion of Gaza three years ago, and they try artillery shelling in heavily populated areas.

Yeah, yeah - Israelis play "real life CS". Aha...

To be frank, unless you were a Jew, Gypsie, or Homosexual Nazi occupation was not much worse than Soviet Occupation. The Soviets are slightly better as they deported political dissidents regardless of their background.
I really don't get the relevance of deportation to Israel continuing to build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, forcing Palestinians out of their homes.

I mentioned it to show how people tend to prioritize "personal" over "objective".
And I was referring to the failures to put Nazis collaborants under trial.
There was a thread on "Nazi heroes" in Estonia here recently.
The idea is the absurdity of such a term.

Not true. If Israel would quit blockading them, shelling them, and forcing them into denser and denser populated area, most would probably quit fighting. The majority of Palestinians are generaly fed up with the fighting and only keep fighting because they know it calls attention to them.

Well, let them leave to Jordan etc.
They'll live in ampler space and better conditions then!
Why don't the ARAB countries take them in, HUH???
If they claim to be "brothers"...
Or is it "mafia family"???

 

[TheLastOne36]

We've reached a point where the only valid option would be the first one in the poll.

 

[Ajidica]

Um, what about PALESTINE???

They aren't a western, liberal democracy. I expect something better from a first world western, liberal, democracy. You seem to understand US politics very well.
"I may have ten skeletons in my closet, but he has 11 in his!"

Well, that's why there still is Palestine - according to Torah Law it should've been "clarified" a very long time ago (preventing casualities from BOTH sides).

To the extent of my knowledge Israel has a secular government. The Torah should have the same role there determining politics as the Bible should have in America. Read: none.

Yeah, yeah - Israelis play "real life CS". Aha...

Huh?

I mentioned it to show how people tend to prioritize "personal" over "objective".
And I was referring to the failures to put Nazis collaborants under trial.

What? They were put under trials broad enough that some allied commanders would have failed.

Well, let them leave to Jordan etc.
They'll live in ampler space and better conditions then!

Why should they be kicked out of their land and house? Jordan can barely support the population it has, let alone a bunch of angry Palestinians bringing nothing with them. Who is to say Jordan wants them>

Why don't the ARAB countries take them in, HUH???
If they claim to be "brothers"...
Or is it "mafia family"???

Perhaps the Palestinians just wish to be left alone, but are unable to due to Israels blockade of valuable construction materials and the settlements continuing to be built?

Why should the Palestinians have to aquiesce to every Israeli demand? Be a man and be the first to engage in detente. Stop building settlements and reduce the stringency of the blockade.

 

[civ2]

Ajidica the VERY typical Roman
My way to address you should say ALL what I think about your "logic".
Just wanna remind you WHO attacked whom in 1948.
Do you know?
So shut up about "blockades etc".
(Why do I waste my time on... no, it's not a troll, it's worse - it's a ROMAN. )

 

[Joecoolyo]

It will at least take away one of their major reasons for fighting. People will fight hard to defend what they see as theirs. If they start seeing their stuff being taken away, they will fight all the harder.

The people bombing want the entire thing back, stopping settlers won't stop them

 

[Ajidica]

Quit calling me Roman. Israel is a liberal, western democracy recieving alot of aid from America. Is it unreasonable that I expect a first world nation to obey the Geneva Convention?

The Arabs attacks you in 1948, yes. But Christians attacked you in Poland, the Spanish put you through the Inquisition, and the Germans had the Holocaust. Do you want to expell all Poles, Spanish, and Germans from Israel?

Israel is not at war with Palestine, so they have no right to put up severe blockades. I accept cargo checking as being prudent. Weapons allowed into Gaza isn't the best idea. But prohibiting construction materials from being let in because they might create rocket emplacements and bunkers is just stupid.

The people bombing want the entire thing back, stopping settlers won't stop them

The people bombing, perhaps. But the people who activly want to see Israel go away are in the minority. Hamas is only surviving because they have popular opinion on their side. They are willing to tolerate a few palestinians killed in the crossfire if someone stands up for them. If Israel quits building new settlements, there isn't as pressing of a need for someone to defend you.

I ask you (indirect you): Why do you expect Palestine to give up some of their territory in a peace settlement when it has been severly constrained, water is scarce due to Israeli exploitation, and even when they are at peace Israel keeps building settlements?
Take the first step Israel, stop building settlements.

 

[civ2]

Joecoolyo
Especially since it's NOT the reason anyways.
This WAR continues since 1948 - when the State of Israel was born.
People always forget:
1. The proportional size of Israel compared to even the closest neighbours.
(Just relocate all those Pals a few dozens of miles!!! Israel will gladly pay for it!)
2. The deaths of innocent civilians (and CHILDREN!!!) that have NOTHING to do with the territories.

I say - let's shut the (world-wide) ROMAN down. Or maybe SHOOT???

Self-moderation: Not worth it.

 

[Ajidica]

Israel is small, but it also contains most of the fertile land. The Soviet Union was far bigger than America, yet nobody argues which was wealthier. A larger country where the majority of it is filled with useless sand can't support many more people.

Or maybe SHOOT???

When in doubt, shoot. Great way of doing things.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Well, that's why there still is Palestine - according to Torah Law it should've been "clarified" a very long time ago (preventing casualities from BOTH sides).

Using mythology to inform political decisions is generally inadvisable. Just for kicks, please elaborate on what you mean by "clarified".

 

[Joecoolyo]

The people bombing, perhaps. But the people who activly want to see Israel go away are in the minority. Hamas is only surviving because they have popular opinion on their side. They are willing to tolerate a few palestinians killed in the crossfire if someone stands up for them. If Israel quits building new settlements, there isn't as pressing of a need for someone to defend you.

Yes, but that's what I was saying. Someone said that to stop the bombing, the magic solution would be to stop setters, when that won't do a thing since the people bombing already have their mind made up.

That doesn't mean the settlers should continue, it just means that stopping them won't be the magic solution to the bombings.

I ask you (indirect you): Why do you expect Palestine to give up some of their territory in a peace settlement when it has been severly constrained, water is scarce due to Israeli exploitation, and even when they are at peace Israel keeps building settlements?
Take the first step Israel, stop building settlements.

I don't. I think the borders right now are fine, and Israel shouldn't keep pushing them.

 

[civ2]

Ajidica

Palestine being of comparable size to Israel...
Yeah, there's NO PLACE for them in the map...
Self-moderation: Not worth it.

Cu
Mythology is useless, agreed.
I'm not talking about it either.

 

[Ajidica]

That doesn't mean the settlers should continue, it just means that stopping them won't be the magic solution to the bombings.

Magic solution, definitly not. Helpful? Yes.

Palestine being of comparable size to Israel...

Palestine (and surrounding territories) are bigger than Israel, but most of the land is worthless desert. Israel also isn't helping the water shortage in Gaza either with their excessive usage. Israel uses it for pools, Gaza needs it for food. If you want I can dig up the National Geographic article.

Yeah, there's NO PLACE for them in the map...

Hmmm. The Jews are telling the Palestinians to go on a diaspora.

And, yeah, you talk like that "Roman" from my link

Knock it off. A mod edited your post to tell you knock it off.

approving suicide bombers to kill innocent children in school buses "because of the settlements".

I don't approve of terrorism or the killing of civilians. Didn't I make that clear? If you can show me where I endorsed terrorism or the killing of civilians, do ahead. Until then, quit making up crap and putting it in my mouth.

Mythology is useless, agreed.
I'm not talking about it either

All organized religion is mythology.
Anyhow. Israel is a secular country, so why do all the articles you link to blatantly say they are about combining the modern political world with the Torah? Justifying your politics because a thousand year old book says they are right is a bad idea.

 

[Verbose]

Ajidica

All Palestinians may be Arabs, but all Arabs aren't Palestinian.

 

[TheLastOne36]

All Palestinians may be Arabs, but all Arabs aren't Palestinian.

or don't want to deal with them anyway.

 

[civ2]

TLO36 and Verbose
Exactly my point.
It would have solved the problem in a week - if the ARAB countries took those "poor" Pals into their (much richer) countries (additional work-force, to the worst).
Just compare how many Jews from all over the wold were and are accepted into Israel - and how the Arab world is deliberately making the Pals sit on their butts to draw attention by playing poor victims.

Ajidica
Oi vei.
Let there be PEACE, not PIECE-BY-PIECE.

 

[Tee Kay]

That's JUST 2000...
(EDIT: It's just the last QUARTER of 2000... )
ONLY civilians and DEFINITELY by PERSONAL targeting...

Last quarter of 2000, let's see, what does that remind me of.

Oh yes, the start of the Second Intifida. Civil War in all but name.

Whilst civilian Palestinians usually just get caught in crossfire

Which of course absolve the Israelis of any and all responsibilities...

And that will magically stop the Hamas and the rest of the troublemakers from bombing Israel? I fail to see your reasoning.

Hamas and the like feeds off Palestinian anger, frustration and suffering. Take away a source of that anger and frustration and Hamas has less to work with. Either give the Palestinians a state or equal rights with Israelis (legally, politically and socially) and groups like Hamas would lose much of its excuses to exist. It doesn't guarantee they'll go away but Palestinian civilians in general would have less reasons to give them their sympathy or support. And if the bombers still insist on blowing up buses, Israel or Palestine can deal with them more like common criminals.

Also, at what this thread's descended into.

The only winning move is not to play.

They don't want peace with Israel - they simply don't want Israel.

Throwing pronouns around makes me respect your arguments less.

We've reached a point where the only valid option would be the first one in the poll.

Indeed. Now if only both sides are sensible...

Israel is not at war with Palestine, so they have no right to put up severe blockades.

And Hamas have no right to keep firing their shat over the border.

Though, the blockade is doing Israel more harm than good, particularly on the PR front.

(Just relocate all those Pals a few dozens of miles!!! Israel will gladly pay for it!)

"Yessir, these Palestinians are free. We'll even pay for the shipping."

 

[TheLastOne36]

Indeed. Now if only both sides are sensible...

Which they(The Palies) won't.

So realistically the only future for the Holy Land is either:

a) Israel deports all the Palestinians into who knows where
b) the Holy Land ends up being a crater in the ground
c) Vast environmental collapse, mass famine and genocide, Rwanda style.

And if the former two don't happen, the third will happen.

Either way, it looks like a very crummy situation for Israel to be in. The best thing they could do for the whole area is to deport the Palestinians, prepare for a big war against neighbors, and hope Iran doesn't nuke them/be prepared for such a bomb. One decade of mass mayhem and death or the collapse of the state of Israel due to environmental collapse and several decades of pain and suffering. The former looks nicer to be honest.

 

[civ2]

taillesskangaru
(Can I somehow shorten your name?)
You (and many others) are exaggarating - I'm not saying there SHOULD be casualities, NO WAY.
I'm saying, these are UNINTENTIONAL mishaps - not people HUNTED DOWN by terrorist snipers or bombers.
Your logic reminds me of a "story".
A little boy comes home all beaten up.
The father asks him: "What happened?"
He tells that some bully attacked him in school.
"So, did you fight back?"
"But, Daaad, it would hurt HIM if I did..."
...
You require from Israel to be such a little boy - "because there will be casualities".
What about ISRAELI civilian casualities, HUH???
Or those are NOT taken into consideration (wonder, why )???

TLO36
Option #4.
Read my sig.