It wasn't only in Haditha...

[Cuivienen]

New 'Iraq massacre' tape emerges

A still from the video footage obtained by the BBC

New footage
The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

The video appears to challenge the US military's account of events that took place in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time four people died during a military operation, but Iraqi police claimed that US troops had deliberately shot the 11 people.

A spokesman for US forces in Iraq told the BBC an inquiry was under way.

The new evidence comes in the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha, where US marines are suspected of killing up to 24 Iraqi civilians in November 2005 and covering up the deaths.

The incident is being investigated by the Pentagon.

The US military has announced that coalition troops in Iraq are to have ethical training following the furore surrounding the alleged killings.

For the next 30 days, they would receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said.

The news of ethical training for US-led troops is likely to be greeted with cynicism by many Iraqis, the BBC's Ian Pannell in Baghdad says, as the troops have long been accused of deliberately targeting civilians.

Cross-checked

The video pictures obtained by the BBC appear to contradict the US account of the events in Ishaqi, about 100km (60 miles) north of Baghdad, on 15 March 2006.

Map

The US authorities said they were involved in a firefight after a tip-off that an al-Qaeda supporter was visiting the house.

According to the Americans, the building collapsed under heavy fire killing four people - a suspect, two women and a child.

But a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building.

The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

The pictures came from a hardline Sunni group opposed to coalition forces.

It has been cross-checked with other images taken at the time of events and is believed to be genuine, the BBC's Ian Pannell in Baghdad says.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

Basic summary: The BBC says that it has found video evidence that US troops massacred 11 civilians in the Iraqi city of Ishaqi in March.

I must say that I am not particularly surprised, though that doesn't mean that I am undismayed. This sort of behavior seems to be entrenched in militaries. The only reason no one has said "My Lai" yet is because the numbers are not quite as large, but it's only a matter of time...

 

[blackheart]

So... the military doesn't try to coverup its wrongdoings, right?

 

[CaptainF]

Just when it couldn't get any crappier...

 

[malclave]

So... the military doesn't try to coverup its wrongdoings, right?

Not according to the BBC article.

 

[amadeus]

Good, let's get this all out there.

Then when all you whiners are said and done, we can leave, and the next time somebody begs us to get involved in their affairs, we can say "go $%^* yourself." The U.S. shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

 

[FreeTerminus]

Good, let's get this all out there.

Then when all you whiners are said and done, we can leave, and the next time somebody begs us to get involved in their affairs, we can say "go $%^* yourself." The U.S. shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

Indeed, the US should be able to commit atrocities without criticism Those ungrateful Iraqis!

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

The US should just mind their own buisness like every one else. I wish the Iraqies good look in their struggle for freedom. If I could I would donate money to them.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Good, let's get this all out there.
Then when all you whiners are said and done, we can leave, and the next time somebody begs us to get involved in their affairs, we can say "go $%^* yourself." The U.S. shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

rmsharpe, we know that no matter what, you'll always support the US. Just think about it now, supporting those bastards isn't supporting the US, quite the countrary. It is if, and only if, every oe in America distance themselves from those murderers, that the US can still hold a higher moral stand. Supporting those killers makes as bad as the Saddam regime

 

[nonconformist]

And if this doesn't bolster the Insurgency, I don't know what will.

 

[amadeus]

Indeed, the US should be able to commit atrocities without criticism Those ungrateful Iraqis!

These stories, despite being isolated incidents, are not treated as such. They're treated as a malicious campaign to slaughter Iraqis at every turn, and such ridiculous allegations seem to get picked up as facts rather easily in the greater Middle East (Protocols of Zion, anyone?)

 

[Mulholland]

Good, let's get this all out there.

Then when all you whiners are said and done, we can leave, and the next time somebody begs us to get involved in their affairs, we can say "go $%^* yourself." The U.S. shouldn't have to put up with this nonsense.

Yes, if I recall correctly the Iraqi's and the world "begged" the US to go into Iraq.

 

[.Shane.]

These stories, despite being isolated incidents

Given the way they're being disclosed, I wouldn't assume that. But, I wouldn't assume they're the standard, either.

They're treated as a malicious campaign to slaughter Iraqis at every turn

By whom? Of course, I'd expect the insurgents to make this kind of hay, but who else? I don't see that happening the the US media or public, other than the extremists (Cindy Sheehans).

I'm extremely critical of the war and have been opposed to it since before it started, but I've never once thought that the desire is to slaughter Iraqis 'at every turn."

I find your statement somewhat ironical (is that a word?) given your final sentence.

 

[blackheart]

Get a grip, rmsharpe. You blindly defend the actions of the government. I haven't seen any remorse from you about these massacres nor any sort of reflection as to why they happened. All I see is you trying to pass this off as evil anti-American propeganda.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, if I recall correctly the Iraqi's and the world "begged" the US to go into Iraq.

Not Iraq, but when we're invited elsewhere. Bosnia, for example.

By whom? Of course, I'd expect the insurgents to make this kind of hay, but who else? I don't see that happening the the US media or public, other than the extremists (Cindy Sheehans).

I'm extremely critical of the war and have been opposed to it since before it started, but I've never once thought that the desire is to slaughter Iraqis 'at every turn."

Look at how these stories are treated in the newspapers and on television. You can't tell me they're not exaggerating the claims and painting the entire army as a bunch of white supremacist bloodthirsty monsters.

Get a grip, rmsharpe. You blindly defend the actions of the government. I haven't seen any remorse from you about these massacres nor any sort of reflection as to why they happened. All I see is you trying to pass this off as evil anti-American propeganda.

I'll feel remorse when they stop trying to kill our men. Let Iraq worry about the Iraqis, because the Iraqis aren't worrying about us.

Why shouldn't I defend the actions of the govenrment? They're trying to save the lives of U.S. soldiers abroad as well as trying to investigate and prosecute criminals within the ranks.

What good can come of having these claims released? All I see is another opportunity for fanatics to spill the blood of American soldiers.

 

[blackheart]

I'll feel remorse when they stop trying to kill our men. Let Iraq worry about the Iraqis, because the Iraqis aren't worrying about us.

Are you serious rmsharpe? Innocent people were murdered. Women, the elderly, and CHILDREN. CHILDREN were MURDERED. I don't give a **** about what your ideology is, but when you say we shouldn't feel remorse for killing children and cast it off as not our problem, then you have a major problem.

Why shouldn't I defend the actions of the govenrment? They're trying to save the lives of U.S. soldiers abroad as well as trying to investigate and prosecute criminals within the ranks.

BLINDLY defending.

What good can come of having these claims released? All I see is another opportunity for fanatics to spill the blood of American soldiers.

Crimes being acknowledged, murderers being punished for their crimes, condolences, etc. You know, the justice system America is based on being carried out, upholding the principles and virtues that America was founded on, that sort of stuff which people tend to forget about.

 

[.Shane.]

Look at how these stories are treated in the newspapers and on television. You can't tell me they're not exaggerating the claims and painting the entire army as a bunch of white supremacist bloodthirsty monsters.

I really disagree. While I don't watch the local news... Here's the first CNN article I found on this just by a quick peek, today:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/02/iraqi.probes/index.html

I see nothing in this supporting your words above.

Also, at the same time I found these articles on the CNN website:

A story about terrorist attacks against Iraqi civilians:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/02/iraq.main/index.html

A story about the capture (in Iraq) of some terrorist suspects:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/01/iraq.main/index.html

A story about the examination of a terrorist workshop (in Gaza):
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/01/wedeman.gaza.btsc/index.html

So, the lead story doesn't paint the US soldiers as monsters, and in other stories CNN shows a good coverage of a wide range of relavent topics, done so, I think fairly.

Granted, this doesn't mean that local news outlets won't reflect bias for their given demographic (which may skew to the left or right), but, again, I really disagree w/ your characterization.

 

[MobBoss]

Lets put this into perspective for a second. The number of soldiers implicated in this sort of behavior is what? Less than 20, counting Haditha and this new report? Ok, lets multiply this by, say, 10 to account for those that we dont know about. So, say 200 soldiers or so are responsible for such crimes, ball park figure.

The number of soldiers that have served in that theater over the last three years is certainly over 1 million, considering initial invasion strength and troop rotations.

Bottom line, this isnt mainstream behavior by your average soldier. As far as numbers are concerned it isnt even on the radar screen. In fact, I would say such occurances are very rare in the very least, press coverage notwithstanding.

Its a common mistake in perception that if 7 soldiers or so did this in Haditha THEN all soldiers are baby killers.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Behavior of this sort, if found out to be true, sickens soldiers just as much as it sickens all of you here.

So, I basically say "so what" to the issue of "it wasnt only in Haditha". Thats like saying "drug use wasnt only in New York". People commit crimes all over, warzones are no exception. Even if you multiplied Haditha 20 or 30 times, that would still be only a teeny tiny fraction of soldiers over there.

Do warcrimes happen? Yes, they most certainly do....even with the best training in the world to prevent it. But it is certainly disengenuous to equate such crime as being normal behavior of the soldier. It isnt.

 

[Neomega]

Iraqi Ambassador says his cousin was killed in cold blood:

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/TSR_IraqiAmbassador_Exclusive.wmv

What about the Italian Agent killed while driving around an Italian Journalist?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4483949.stm

And the claims about contractors doing whatever they want.
When Bush was asked, who do Security Contractors in Iraq answer to, he said
"That's a good question, he heh heh, I'll have to as Rumsfeld"

There is a video on the internet of a British contractors working for Aegis just driving around town, shooting up civilian cars, for no reason at all, Watch it here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5177956987382860214

read stories here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/09/AR2005090902136.html



There are at least a hundred stories of, "they were approaching the checkpoint too fast, so we killed them" Are every single one of those the truth?

 

[MobBoss]

There are at least a hundred stories of, "they were approaching the checkpoint too fast, so we killed them" Are every single one of those the truth?

Let me ask you a question. Imagine you are pulling duty at a checkpoint such as these, possibly at night. You know full well that fellow soldiers have been killed by insurgents rushing checkpoints previously. There are signs for several hundred meters before the point, writtin in Iraqi that tells people of the checkpoint ahead, to slow down and stop.

You get a car that doesnt slow down. It is headed at the checkpoint at a high rate of speed. You will only have mere seconds to react to this possible threat. What do you do?

Bottom line, I dont believe that soldiers randomly shoot up vehicles at checkpoints and kill civilians for giggles. But apparently you do. Do innocent people get killed sometimes? Yup. But if those innocent people do not heed the warnings posted, exactly how is a soldier supposed to determine what is a true threat and what is simply a misunderstanding? The answer is a soldier has to consider all such disregard of warning as a threat, to do any less would simply allow our soldiers to be killed more effectively by the enemy.

 

[Moss]

People seem to forget that this is a war. Last time I checked, people died in wars. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way defending the soldiers in Haditha or any other possible act of war-crimes or murder. However, to think that soldiers are perfect, and that innocent civilians aren't going to die every once in awhile, is an idealists approach to war that just isn't plausible. If you don't like the war, which I don't, blame the administration official and the war planners. Soldiers are following orders in most cases, orders that they must follow. It's not their choice to be in Iraq, but they have to be their anyway...and while they are there, they are going to do everything possible to stay alive. If that means being a little on edge and possibly accidently killing a civilian...well, it happens.

Incidents like Haditha shouldn't happen however, and I do hope that those who are responsible are brought to justice. Just don't bring upon hate on American or other soldiers when they are just doing their job. If you don't like the war, blame the one who ordered the troops into Iraq...