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Italy and Germany changes for the bigger map

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Logoncal, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    I would like to suggest you to break Germany and Italy for the bigger map. Have 2-4 civs like how it is on RFC Europe but of course less extreme because the bigger map will still have a smaller Europe that RFC Europe has.

    I could suggest have things like Saxony, Prussia and Bavaria for Germany and Venice, Sardinia and the Papal States for Italy. Maaayybe Naples but Naples was more of a Kingdom controlled by outsiders (HRE and Aragon).

    Then, when the 19th century kicks in, we have Germany and Italy form in their correct times, based on the development of the civs.

    How about it?
     
    SBlack, EdmundIronside and 1SDAN like this.
  2. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    PAPAL STATES
     
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  3. Genghis Khaiser

    Genghis Khaiser Prince

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    I think it would lead to the infamous overrepresentation of Europe even more. That's like separating China and India by dynasties even more. Prussia could be extended to include the Teutonic Knights, but Saxony and Bavaria are already represented by being part of the HRE.
    As for Italy, I'm not sure if I could say that the Papal States could be a separate civ, as they had political relevance in all of Europe for over a thousand years. Italian City-States, like Florence, Venice, Milan, and Genoa, are good enough represented by Italy as a whole.
     
  4. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    It would be interesting if there was a mechanic to represent the political division within civs like Italy and Holy Rome. Not sure what that would be.

    P.S. Papal States is a 1 city holy city civ. You know what else is a 1 city holy city civ?

    JERUSALEM!
     
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  5. Darnokthemage

    Darnokthemage Chieftain

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    Papal state should represent the Crusader state and have a sick bonus towards holy cities.
     
  6. Finbros

    Finbros Chieftain

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    Then English (excuse me, Aenglisc) Heptarchy, all Russian principalities, French semi-independent vassals (Burgundy, Normandy, Brettany, Aquitania), Iberian reconquista states, Irish petty-kingdoms, Balkan states from Zeta to Northern Kosovo, civil war Soviet republics (including all goverments of Ukraine, nearly ten, IIRC) and post-Soviet states (unrecognized too).

    And one China civ from 3000 BC to 2020 AD.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    if i cant play ulm then whats the point
     
  8. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    This thread will go no where but memes if we don't head off topic.

    Perhaps we should discuss mechanics that represent these divisions without making 10,000 new civs
     
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  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    And thus the last post in the thread was made.
     
  10. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    When will anybody create Ryukyu civ
     
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  11. Bautos42

    Bautos42 Warlord

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    Last time I checked, 1500 - 2000 civs should suffice in order to properly represent the holy roman empire. Of course, as many of those states had areas of only a few square kilometers, we would have to adapt the map accordingly. At one tile per square kilometer, we would get around 1000x1000 tiles. While this might generate the appearance of over-representing the Holy Roman Empire, we must not forget the impact the Bishopric of Ratzeburg had on world history.

    In all seriousness though, I think if there is one civ in the region of the holy roman empire that might be added with the bigger map, it would be a proper Austrian civ. The Holy Roman civ could then possibly be expanded to represent the Carolingian Empire. While both France and the Holy Roman Empire have about equal claims to be the successor of the Carolingian Empire, the current French civ does a mediocre job at representing it. A combined Frankish / Holy Roman Empire could have its first goal focused on conquering the full extend of the empire, with the latter two UHV being more or less the current ones. core would be The Rhine Region and Paris, shifting to more or less the region of West Germany (i.e. the pre 1990) after the spawn of France. France would flip the western parts of France, but e.g. not Marseilles. With the new map, this would still provide 3 - 4 cities for France on spawn. With the spawn of Italy, Austria, the Netherlands and finally Prussia, the Holy Roman Empire should destabilize and collapse, leaving its former cities up for grabs by its neighbors. Nonetheless, there are certainly civs which should be added first, before even really considering this idea (Islamic Egypt and Kievan Rus, to name a few)
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I think this is an overly pessimistic estimate. We can easily increase the relative size of Germany by using tried and true techniques proposed in this subforum such as shrinking Africa to 10 tiles height and pushing it far enough south to collide with Antarctica
     
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  13. BasilBerylium

    BasilBerylium Chieftain

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    lol
     
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  14. Logoncal

    Logoncal Prince

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    I mean, who cares about Africa?! There's like 3 civs at most.

    Let's also not forget Burgundy. They exist.
     
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  15. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    This has been the best comment duo in the history of comment duos, maybe ever

    I'd love to see a playable Carolingian empire. Bits of Tales did it by moving France's spawn date back, but it lead to all sorts of jank with the player's core being dependent on the location of the capital.

    By the way @Leoreth, what's your opinion on reclaiming lost core territory after they shrink? IIRC capturing Cordoba grants it as Core territory, perhaps the same could be done for Civs whose cores shrink?

    As a side note, tiles like Cordoba that turn to Core upon acquisition should have a tell on the stability map. Occupied Core maybe?
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I don't know if that would be accurate generally.
     
  17. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside Prince

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    Do you have a set number in mind Leoreth for the maximum number of civilizations you would have in DOC?
     
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  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I'm not completely done with my research into the Holy Roman Empire, but I think we need more than initially anticipated to represent the separation of Guelph territories after the fall of Henry the Lion in the 13th century.
     
  19. BarbarianX

    BarbarianX Chieftain

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    You are forgeting the Free Imperial Cities here, as if they didn't had any influence not just on the Empire, but on the whole world.
     
  20. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

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    Please don't.

    Civ does an oversimplification here that I'm okay with: That all these empires were always monolithic blocks without internal strife and civil wars, but set against each others to win against them.

    In some regions, there is already realistic representation of multiple civilizations that external observers tend to lump into one: like Harappa/Hindus/Tamils/Mughals; like Holy Roman/Austria and Prussia; like Arabia/Seljuks/Moors/Abassids.

    If we start to introduce Scots vs. English; and Burgundy vs. France vs. Holy Rome; and Guelfs vs. Ghibelins; and more than one Christian Spain; and all the Lombardian cities vs each other; and Danes vs. Swedes; and Athens vs. Sparta; and Union vs. Confederation; and so on... the game will lose its cohesion and reliability.

    Although one Civ currently stands out, which is China. There, a split-up would make sense, if we only could agree about WHICH is the big split up.
     
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