ITT we design a brand new tech tree.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Ramesses, Dec 18, 2010.

  1. Ramesses

    Ramesses Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.

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    For those of us who are unsatisfied with the game as it is, I present to you an opportunity to help make Civ V better. We're going to design our very own tree!

    :xmastree:

    Actually, I was thinking a tech tree. But that idea's okay too.

    Here's how it's going to go down. I'll keep track of all suggestions in the top post. Everyone else, meanwhile, pitches ideas depending on whatever steps of the process are open at the time. Those steps, by the way, are:

    1.) (OPEN) List all terrain types, features, resources, and improvements; as well as movement costs, combat modifiers, and yields and yield modifiers. Keep in mind the following advice as you pitch your suggestions: "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
    2.) (NOT READY) Pick out the most strategically important abilities, bonuses, units, etc. in the game, or add some new ones. These will be listed as Abilities.
    3.) (NOT READY) Assign Abilities to technologies, currently existing in Civ V or entirely new ones. These will be listed as Key Techs.
    4.) (NOT READY) Think up possible prerequisite techs for Key Techs, either already existing or new ones. I will list non-Key Techs as Gateway Techs.
    5.) (NOT READY) Come up with abilities, bonuses, units, etc. for Gateway Techs, and flesh out Key Techs.
    6.) (NOT READY) Create Gateway Techs for Gateway Techs, or connect them to Key Techs.
    7.) (NOT READY) Decide on AND/OR gates for tree progression (yes, this tech tree will reintroduce OR gates. Really my main motivation for starting this project).
    8.) (NOT READY) Draw up the Tech Tree, and try to make it visually appealing.
    9.) (NOT READY) Agree on Research Costs and make small adjustments.
    10.) (NOT READY) Turn this sucker into a mod!

    Each time a new step opens, I'll make a new list for it, including a few examples which should help you understand what to do if there's any confusion. So, without further ado, let's get started!

    Terrain Types
    Grassland
    • Yield: 2 Food
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: 0%
    Plains
    • Yield: 1 Food, 1 Prod
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: 0%
    Desert
    • Yield: 1 Gold
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: -25%
    Tundra
    • Yield: 1 Food
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: -10%
    Snow
    • Yield: 1 Prod
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: -25%
    Coast
    • Yield: 1 Food, 1 Gold
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: -25% for non-naval units
    Ocean
    • Yield: 1 Gold
    • Move Cost: 1
    • Combat Mod: -50% for non-naval units

    Tile Features
    Flood Plains
    • Occurs on ALL desert tiles next to rivers
    • Yield Mod: +2 Food, -1 Gold
    • Move Cost Mod: 0
    • Combat Mod: 0%
    Forest
    • Occurs on Grassland, Plains, and Tundra tiles, replaced by Jungles where
      applicable
    • Yield Mod: -1 Food, +1 Prod
    • Move Cost Mod: +1
    • Combat Mod: +25%
    • Other Notes: Must be removed before building Improvements (Exceptions: Trading Post, Lumbermill)
    Jungle
    • Occurs on ALL Grassland tiles with Forest less than Distance D from equator (where D is dependent on map size)
    • Yield Mod: -1 Prod
    • Move Cost Mod: +1
    • Combat Mod: +25%
    • Other Notes: Must be removed before building Improvements (Exceptions: Trading Post)
    Lake
    • Occurs on ALL coast tiles belonging to a body of water 6 tiles in size or smaller
    • Yield Mod: +1 Food, +1 Gold
    • Move Cost Mod: 0
    • Combat Mod: +25%
    Marsh
    • Occurs on Grassland tiles
    • Yield Mod: -1 Food
    • Move Cost Mod: +1
    • Combat Mod: -25%
    • Other Notes: Must be removed before building Improvements
    Oasis
    • Occurs on Desert tiles
    • Yield Mod: +2 Food, +2 Gold
    • Move Cost Mod: 0
    • Combat Mod: 0%
    • Other Notes: Cannot build improvements on this tile
    Hill
    • Occurs on any land tiles
    • Yield Mod: -1 Food, +1 Prod
    • Move Cost Mod: +1
    • Combat Mod: +25%
    • Other Notes: Cannot build improvements on this tile
    Mountain
    • Occurs on any land tiles
    • Yield Mod: No Yield
    • Move Cost Mod: Impassible
    • Combat Mod: N/A
    • Other Notes: Cannot be worked

    Other Feature
    River
    • Occurs between tiles.
    • Yield Mod: +1 Gold to neighboring tiles
    • Move Cost Mod: +1 if crossed
    • Combat Mod: -50% if crossed

    Resources
    Wheat
    • Yield Mod: +2 Food
    • Empire Effect: +1 Food to all Cities
    Cattle
    • Yield Mod: +3 Food
    • Empire Effect: None
    Sheep
    • Yield Mod: +2 Food, +1 Gold
    • Empire Effect: None
    Deer
    • Yield Mod: +3 Food
    • Empire Effect: None
    Fish
    • Yield Mod: +3 Food
    • Empire Effect: None
    Bananas
    • Yield Mod: +2 Food, +1 Gold
    • Empire Effect: None
    Cotton
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Dyes
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Furs
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Gems
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Gold
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Incense
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Ivory
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Marble
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Pearls
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Silk
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Silver
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Spices
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Sugar
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Whale
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Wine
    • Yield Mod: +3 Gold
    • Empire Effect: +5 Happiness for first copy, +1 Happiness for additional copies
    Horses
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Horses for unit building.
    Iron
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Iron for unit building.
    Coal
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Coal for unit building.
    Oil
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Oil for unit building.
    Uranium
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Uranium for unit building.
    Aluminum
    • Yield Mod: +2 Prod
    • Empire Effect: Provides 2-4 Aluminum for unit building.

    Improvements
    Farm
    Fishing Boats
    Pasture
    Mine
    Camp
    Plantation
    Quarry
    Trading Post
    Fort
    Lumbermill
    Oil Well
    Offshore Platform
    Academy
    Customs House
    Landmark
    Manufactory
    Citadel
     
  2. Fluxx

    Fluxx Mr. Almost There

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    I am happy. Alot of people are happy. They just dont post as often to express their happiness.
     
  3. Omega124

    Omega124 Challenging Fate

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    How about Feudalism unlocks Vassalzing?
     
  4. sucksforyou112

    sucksforyou112 Superman

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    Key Techs:
    The Wheel: Roads, Chariots, Trade Routes (Ancient Era)
    Electricity: Pretty much all modern era stuff (Industrial/Modern Era)
    Music: Allows for monument/culture growth (Ancient Era)
    Construction This could either be one tech, or have woodworking, clayworking, ropemaking, etc. (Ancient Era)
    Agriculture: Farming (Ancient Era)
    Mining: mines, metals, eventually needed for tunnels, canals, irrigation (Ancient Era, with bonuses added as game progresses)

    Seems like ancient techs have shaped the modern world more then newer techs... well I guess it only makes sense. ;)
     
  5. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Key TECHS;

    Ancient; Sailing, Mining
    Classical; Philosophy, Iron Working
    Medieval; Currency, Education
    Renaissance; Gunpowder, Scientific Theory
    Industrial; Electricity, Flight
    Modern; Atomic Theory, Rocketry
    Future; Future - duh.

    As proven by my Z-Eras screens.

    PS; I'm also working on a huge indirect poll which will be based on a single xls spreadsheet to be filled by participants once i'm through with v1131 testings. I hope you'll join in, cuz i'll use the statistical results for the enhanced next version of these "Welcome to Eras" popups.
     
  6. jagdtigerciv

    jagdtigerciv Prince

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    +1 food for farms on non-river tiles (fertilizer tech)
     
  7. AfterShafter

    AfterShafter Deity

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    Gotta chime in... I'm happy with the tech tree. A few link and requirement changes would make me very happy with it, but that's about it. A complete tech tree rebuild is completely unnecessary in my eyes. Please, avoid the habit *many* detractors of Civ V have of putting words in many of our mouths ;)

    And, good luck with your project.
     
  8. Ramesses

    Ramesses Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.

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    I apologize for the comment. I've removed it to avoid any future controversy.
     
  9. Ramesses

    Ramesses Ruler. Visionary. Pimp.

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    I realize now that I have not placed this thread in the best of sub-forums. Given all the activity here in General, it's pretty much doomed to be overshadowed by new topics, and the only way to keep it going would be to bump it every few days or so. I'd rather not do that.

    If a moderator sees this, would you kindly transplant this to the "Civ V - Ideas and Suggestions" sub-forum? Thank you.
     
  10. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I definitely think it'd be fun to play a mod with a more detailed tech tree, a la Rise of Mankind.

    But this is hard to do.

    Some general brainstorming:

    Slower military progress particularly from late medieval up to early 20th century, with more steps.
    stone age
    bronze age/iron age
    classical
    Early medieval (basic spears, swords, early knights with chain and lance)
    Late medieval (heavy knights with plate & barding, longbows, bombard)
    Early renaissance (advanced pike formations, arquebus)
    Baroque
    Napoleonic
    Late 19th century
    WWI
    WW2
    Cold War
    Modern
    Future

    Add in an extra unit line: recon or skirmish units.
    Use the Inca slinger ability, or just horse archer style (low strength bombardment but move after attack).
    This could include slingers, javelins, mounted infantry, dragoons, armored cars, special forces

    Tie the tech lines together, so its hard to beeline military more than 1-2 steps into the future.
    Have various passive benefits from advancing non-military techs. Not just new buildings. Things like improvement yield increases, trade route bonuses, road movement bonuses, unit supply increases (logistics techs could give you free maintenance from X units)

    Separate out the hugely important advances in key disciplines, so physics, chemistry and biology aren't just 1 tech each.
    Distinguish between medieval steel use and 19th century blast furnace steel mass production.
    Include economic effects of 20th century transportation; superhighways, airports, container terminals, etc.

    More incremental steps mean that the difference in tech costs between Eras is more pronounced, so its very hard to be more than an era ahead of other players.

    Try and include the range of different periods of massive agricultural advances, including the Agricultural Revolution, the Green Revolution, and future tech biotechnology (Soylent vat foods!).

    Gotta run now, might contribute more later.
     
  11. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    May i? While i have just bolded my preferences above i should share a few extra things.

    1) Insert between Modern & Future --- WW3, Genetics, "Terminators" robotic, Mars Terraforming, SupraNet, AntiChrist (no indirect religion implied, btw), FTL, Organic economy, Demilitarisation, Contact (Seti resolved), Psi or extrasensorial perception, etc.
    2) Pre-Stone Ice age and even the Apes wandering helplessly to find FIRE without settling or fighting anything other than Mammoths!
    3) Strategic Resource; add Wood for nearly all pre-Gunpowder Naval & Range Units. Example; Frigate requires Iron & Wood & Sail/Cotton.
    4) Units; all dependant on virtual supply lines & some cultural influence ratio. Example; crashing out-of-fuel planes.
    5) Buildings require matter (Electricity, Stone, Wood, Glass, Aluminium, etc) to be completed too on top of the current production. Example; Eiffel Tower must be pulled from Stockpiles of Iron.
     
  12. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Sorry to be unclear, this is sortof what I meant by future; tech that doesn't exist yet, but could, rather than the generic dull "future tech".
    I wouldn't got that far ahead though; I'd keep it near future; cloning, cybernetics, biowarfare, archologies, etc. Next War had some interesting ideas for this.
    But no alien contact, FTL, ESP, etc.
    I'd try and keep it more grounded in feasible technologies.

    I'd recommend being very careful about strategic resources. It is better to have just a few resources that really are actually strategic (so the number of horses really does influence the size of the cavalry army you can field, and so forth) rather than the current system where if you can get any of a resource, you normally have as much as you need, but also rather than another system where you try to actually model physical requirements.
    There should only be a couple of strategic resources per age, and they should only be the most really important ones.

    Strategic resources should determine the kind of army you could build, but you shouldn't have a lot of excess stuff around, and the resources should only be strategic in the ages when they actually mattered.

    So for example: you could have a high quality timber resources that was needed for early exploration units like carracks and caravels, but wasn't needed anymore by the time of 19th century age of sail, because anyone could easily buy enough timber to build a navy by then.

    So you aren't trying to incorporate every product input that a unit needs (iron, cloth, cotton) which is likely to mean the map needs to be covered with all kinds of resources; instead you just incorporate the products where control of them was actually strategic.

    It'd also be neat to have some variation in resource needs for units; for example you could have peasant spearmen that require no resources, men at arms that require iron, cavalry that require horses, and then super-heavy cavalry (cataphracts?) that require both iron and horses. All in the same era. So you could have a choice between an army that had lots of medium units, or a few super-good units and lots of weak ones.

    You could do a similar thing with tanks; light modern tanks that require aluminium, heavy MBTs that require oil and aluminium.

    It would be great to see more civilian possibilities for strategic resource use though. Steel works that require iron and boost production, superhighways that require oil and boost gold, etc.

    But again, really try and keep the number of resources limited.
    A good guideline is probably for any given era, 1-2 military strategic resources, that then become economic strategic resources in the following era. So, iron might be a military resource during medieval, but become an economic resource in industrial revolution.
    Oil might be a military resource during WW2 era, but an economic resource during cold war/modern era.

    This kind of design normally destroys the AI. Unless you're going to recode the entire AI from scratch, you probably need to work within the existing system.
    Look at how bad for example the Scenario AI is when confronted with the scurvy mechanic.
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    More variety in naval units in general; particularly with the vanilla design where getting the first shot off is so important, there is room for high mobility/low damage/low strength units vs low mobility/high strength units.

    There is room for a lot more detail in naval units in general.
    The vanilla design has only a single age of sail unit, then late 19th century ironclad, then ww2 ships.
    Add in some extra layers.
    Siege galley of some kind; slow but heavier hitting vs land.
    Wargalley; age-of sail unit with high strength but lower movement and no ability to enter ocean tiles.
    Dreadnoughts and commerce raiders.

    So I would suggest something like:
    Heavy line: siege galley -> Carrack -> Galleon -> dreadnought -> battleship -> missile cruiser
    Mobile line: trireme -> ?? -> barque -> commerce raider -> destroyer -> modern destroyer
    Explorer: caravel -> commerce raider
    Brown-water specialist: galleas (or wargalley) - > ironclad -> dreadnought
    Sub: submarine -> nuclear sub

    Some possible techs for some of these:
    Siegecraft, Navigation, naval design, Ironclads, Sonar, Exploration....
     
  14. ganpot

    ganpot Chieftain

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    Could I please just add in a request to have a full featured future era (for once)? I hate having the game end in 2050 as I am a sci-fi fan, and I would love to see what ideas you guys come up with.

    I recommend adding in underwater cities and units if you can manage that (I don't know if it's even possible).
     
  15. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Agreed twice.

    1) I probably was a bit too enthusiastic with a few irrational choices and yet, Future is a huge Sci_Fi pool of incredible literature works - besides a lot more speculative "sources" of theory. If anything GDR represents such an idiom partially. Thus, why i was trying to expand on probabilities through brainstorming steps as you did.
    While Techs are the basic but essential undercurrent, it's not hard to generalize enough to integrate purely resulting assets from their definition & names; Nanotechnology just feels "empty" as of now.

    2) Then Wood should be considered along side Horses... while LumberMill tasking on forests might need to be moved during Ancient as a result of Boats (+++) dependancy, for example.

    In some extent;
    Classical... Iron + Salt
    Medieval... Production to Research & Wealth + some concepts like Gold to Food & Culture or whatever, etc.
    Renaissance... Coal + Jewels(luxury)
    Industrial... Oil + Aluminium + ???
    Modern... Uranium + FreshWater(Global warming, anyone!) + ???
    Future... Silicon + MedKits/Pills(somehow)

    Adding features rather than limiting scope. Want more techs? Might as well give them clear purposes.
     
  16. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Understood, apologies for being too negative in what should be an enthusiastic brainstorming thread.

    In terms of self-criticism; the big problem with super-units that require lots of resources is that the current unit upkeep model doesn't care what the unit is. You need to move to a system where a cataphract requires more upkeep than a peasant spearman before you can really take advantage of this.

    I don't quite understand this sorry.

    Salt is worth considering, but it strikes me that it would be a better bonus resource (like cows or wheat) than a strategic resource. Salt was valuable and profitable locally, but it was valuable mostly as a trade-good. Its not like you'd gain an advantage over your neighbor by denying them salt.

    [Which reminds me: a really big thing for this thread should be that techs give passive boosts to bonus resource improvements and luxury good improvements; bonus resources should *always* give yield higher than a regular tile. So, add tech bonuses to pastures and plantations]

    A strategic resource should really be something that comes from land, and is really needed for key military or economic activity.

    Jewels probably work better as the existing Gems luxury.

    Coal, oil and uranium make a ton of sense, and aluminium is ok as a placeholder.
    I'd consider adding copper for the early period.
    *Maybe* stone... but I think Marble works well enough as a Wonder booster, and I don't really think availability of stone was that hard to come by; anyone who wanted walls was limited by the economic cost of building them, not the availability of stone.
    I don't think climate change is a fun mechanic to add, and I think fresh water already has big enough boosts in the game.

    Maybe a generic "rare earths" for future era techs?

    So: Copper, Iron, Horses, Hardwood, Coal, Oil, Aluminium, Rare Earths?

    I think with some of these, there is the possibility of creating strategic resources that come from buildings, rather than from land.
    So you could have an ammunition strategic resource required for infantry and artillery, with a lower strength militia unit that required no resource.
    You could have a manufactured goods resource required for Mall buildings.
    Future biological products and such would make more sense as manufactured goods than resources that appeared on the map.
    Though I worry a lot about the AI's ability to handle these.
     
  17. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Engineering unlocks the worker's task, presently... you're using the term "Lumber" or "Hardwood" while i encompass the general idea with simply "Wood". Thus why Mill as a task (more like chopping trees, in fact) to provide such a new strategic resource to build a Workboat -- would have to be moved into the Ancient Era unless Chopping Trees adds the values necessary.

    True, back to the drawing board for a second in Renaissance.

    FreshWater in Modern? IIRC, Natural Gas was once used in previous Civs... but that is tied with Oil indirectly.
    The point with water is that Polar caps are melting and that treated sources will become a HUGE factor in the upcoming economies. Generally, it could be linked with supply lines & growth from Ice-Age to Future also without much of a consequence except for rarety.
    Now comes fishing on the coastal area... and a bunch of "useless" +1:c5food: & +1:c5gold: suddenly adding & matched with an extra "product" via pumping, desalinization, etc. In summary.

    Sounds great from here!
     
  18. Zyxpsilon

    Zyxpsilon Running Spider

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    Hey, Renaissance... got it!

    Sulfur (Brimstone) is used in GunPowder and while alchemy was pretty strategic in Medicinal times (sulfuric acid), it too was digging for a such a precious mineral.
     
  19. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I would think that a hardwood stand strategic resource would be different from the standard lumber mill improvement on a forest tile.
    If you think you can get the wood for ships from any forest, then there is no need for a Wood strategic resource, since its not rare enough to matter.
    I'd also think that navies weren't really big enough to need massive amounts of wood until the age of exploration, so I had hardwood stands more in mind for galleons and such than for triremes.

    Well, potentially some units could still require iron.
    Some mods have had saltpeter in past (or sulphur), but I don't think that makes too much sense as a strategic resource; its not that hard to get hold of.
    I think its ok to not be resource heavy in every era; in fact, one of the big things about gunpowder armies was as a big equalizer. All you needed was people and the supplies to support them; making guns was pretty easy, and training people to use them was pretty cheap.
    So its not unreasonable to have a period where resource endowment doesn't matter for military.
    You can also still have some iron use, for bombards, but I wouldn't imaging that pikemen-type units would need iron anymore.

    Potentially, renaissance and age of exploration could be a period where you start getting bonuses for the luxury goods; buffs to gold, silver, gems, plantations, camps.
    Its certainly a period of resource exploitation.
    It might be cool to have some eras where strategic resources mattered more, and others where luxury goods were more of a priority.

    Well, its really not that rare now. Maybe in some future dystopia, but clean freshwater is still widespread and cheap in every developed country; its more rare in desert areas, but even then look at SoCal and Nevada, they can just divert it from long distances away.
    I see fresh water as a cool resource in a post-apocaplytic mod (think Fallout 3) or future mod than one now. Modern era to me kinda represents 1980-2020 or so.

    I work on climate change stuff in my job, and rainfall reductions and temperature increases may have some big impacts on agriculture yields (though smaller than those from things like fertilizer) but water still isn't going to be that rare in most of the world.
    And in lots of the world, precipitation will increase; higher temperature means more evaporation means more rainfall.
    Polar caps melting don't really affect fresh water availability. They have some impact on sea-level rise (though not as much as heat expansion), but thats it really.
    So fresh water would only really make sense as a resource in arid areas, and I think the oasis bonus is already sufficient to model that.

    Perhaps a desalination plant that requires desert tiles and increases food tile yield by +1 in non-floodplain deserts?

    Agree that natural gas overlaps with oil too much.

    I think oil, aluminium, uranium and Rare Earths are sufficient for modern/future era resources.

    Perhaps some future building that requires wheat resource locally and provides a biofuel oil resource?
     
  20. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Heh, ninjaed.
     

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