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I've trained AI to use fighters against ground units

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by FearSunn, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. FearSunn

    FearSunn Chieftain

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    I am really appreciate your support, Aristos. I feel like I am losing my nerve with this game full of bugs and Firaxis not caring about fixing it. This is my strong warning: this expansion is your last chance Firaxis! You will stay alone if you don't show the effort to fix long lasting bugs. I won't be helping you anymore, Firaxis.

    PS: Enjoy Your Canals!

    Moderator Action: Modified your post to bring it within the language rules of the site. Please do not go out of your way to avoid the autosensor. Calling other users "fanboys" is considered trolling, please find another way to express it. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
    Civrinn likes this.
  2. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    The canals that will be "enjoyable" will be the canals that the AI builds... between two-tile lakes! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Are you willing to share your code via private messaging? Perhaps we can find more things to be done. And you have my commitment to not share it and to support your boycott, only for private use. If you are, just PM me and we will see how.
     
  3. FearSunn

    FearSunn Chieftain

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    I bet it will. Don't forget to pre-order :)
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I like to delineate between expectation and anticipation in this context. I do expect them to do certain things, but I don't anticipate those expectations being met given past track record.
     
    c4c6 likes this.
  5. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Of course I will pre-order...!!!

    Imperator: Rome.

    (not really... I don't pre-order anymore, I am consistent with my believe that pre-ordering has decreased release quality, and sometimes final quality, by a huge amount)
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Pre-order without some kind of extra benefit/incentive is a cancerous concept anyway. At this point I more shake my head at it rather than being amazed, but it's still quite interesting how so many consumers blatantly embrace anti-consumer behavior.
     
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  7. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    The instant gratification generations.
     
  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    While I can see that people want this fixed, I'm actually not sure I want it. The game is way too easy already, and if the AI invests late game production and gold into overpriced and underpowered units, it will perform even worse. I haven't used fighters much, maybe two or three times, but I remember they were hilariously bad at fighting ground units. As long as the devs do not reduce the production cost of aircraft, I'm happy that the AI doesn't build them nor use them in what can easily be suicide missions.
     
    c4c6 likes this.
  9. Human Crouton

    Human Crouton Chieftain

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    The whole point would be that the fighters can attack ground units when there are no other air missions available to do, instead of just sitting there. If the AI used bombers correctly, we'd need fighters, and those fighters attack ground units when there were no bombers to intercept would make the game harder.
     
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  10. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I still think that the first thing is to make aircraft actually good units that are worth investing in. Right now it's a bit like with Supply Wagons and Medics - I'm happy AI doesn't build them and I don't build them either. First issue is to make the units useful, then make sure that the AI uses them. As long as aircraft is weak, it will makes it more easy to win if Ai build it, not harder. I had a multiplayer game going to the later stages fighting only once, and I remember an Anti Air Gun being good enough to discourage Bombers and it was much cheaper than fighters. And frankly, since Anti Air Guns one-shot fighters quite often, fighters seem the worse counter for bombers right now.
     
  11. FearSunn

    FearSunn Chieftain

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    This is actually on the further To Do list of this mod: to make AI build anti-air. But only in cases when it really needs it.
    AI should be "aware" opponents have bombers and only then build AA, not just build.
     
  12. cvb

    cvb Chieftain

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    This! I'd prefer to avoid complications by simply looking into the human player's unit list - but some may call it "cheating".

    To make the announced future era playable at all, it is necessary to see aviation etc. in a much better state. Maybe I'll even start my first Civ game later than 'in the beginning' ... :eek:
    They "must" have a plan to overcome the largest discrepancies in this sphere. A riddle.
     
    Trav'ling Canuck likes this.
  13. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    A more subtle way to do it would be to have the AI's build order tweaked based on what the human actually has, with the amount of information growing with diplomatic visibility.

    But at the end of the day, I don't see giving the AI more information as any different than giving the AI production bonuses. The end objective is to have interesting and challenging opponents. I don't care how we get there.
     
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  14. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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    Well, I am glad I re-read this topic.
    I don’t have access to vanilla gameplay data any more, and I am curious about one thing, if you could check it, please.
    Are there any specific behavior tree node (or even types) dedicated to air attacks? More specifically, to attacks that use unittype_air, just like in your example.
    As of now, in R&F, there is one called “air city siege” (or attack maybe?) that uses unittype_air_siege to perform an attack. And people report that bombers are used in offense, so it is ok.
    However, there isn’t a single node that would use just unittype_air, or be specifcally dedicated to air attack, so e.g. fighters could be used by it.
    My theories are:
    1. There was a node but somehow it is gone. We could try to re-create it maybe.
    2. Fighters are supposed to be used by a generic Attack Units node that handles all combat units. For reasons unknown it just doesn’t use fighters. This we cannot fix, it is an engine bug.
    I am pretty sure that the problem is on BH level because in the logs I can see that AI recruits Fighters for attack teams, contracts are generated and units built. But they just don’t attack...
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    As for dealing with ground units, shouldn't you use bomber instead of fighter?
     
  16. cvb

    cvb Chieftain

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    If a civ has abundant numbers of all kind of units, of course.

    Just in case the available abilities are restricted somehow (aka 'challenge' in reference to human player) one should use fighters (falling priority) to
    - attack fighters to gain air superiority
    - attack bombers to counter their inflicted damage
    - do reconnaissance flights, if significant fog of war
    - attack ground units (eg. artillery), which are dangerous to own units
    - maraud all kind of weak units (eg. transporter)
    - soften the entrenchment level of ground units in important positions etc.
     
  17. FearSunn

    FearSunn Chieftain

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    I've added some more videos showing AIs planes (Fighters and Bombers) attacking ground units. So basically Planes_Attack_Ground issue is solved:
     
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  18. cvb

    cvb Chieftain

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    I'm quite expectantly about Firaxis' coming patch in respect to Fighters&Bombers.

    Even more, in the best of all worlds the release of the gameCoreDLL sources might provoke the return of Siesta Guru with new impulses for AI+.

    Anyway, bundled efforts can become more than the sum of the pieces.
     
  19. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Chieftain

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    If actually spies could do military operation, and map would not auto-update with un-consistent fog of war that let you, and AI, look at your districts behind the curtain, the AI not cheating, and tech trade, map trade, Intelligence op. trade, such as, for the record, troop amassment at some border, before an actual attack occour, that might give some time to prepare an alliance before a war start. AI should FIGHT for vital information, not just insta-grab these. It is so depressing how short ancient era is. Writing should get 10 techs to study before anyone could actually build a library. AI would not build AA anyway, because in few turns it gets focusing on damn space station, sometime as early as 1200 D.C! Tech tree is broken.
    I have uninstalled all AI mod because of tech tree, Innovation needs to seriously slow down after gunpowder! China stopped advancing for 500 years after gunpowder, the West moved on at enormous collaboration efforts, acquiring foreign scientists innovations. To be "aware" has to do with the entire underground mapping, conditions must be put, real hard conditions, not eurekas, but trade, espionage, ambassadors, give names to scientist that will occupy those damn slots in the libraries as specialists, kidnapping, that sort of things.
    The whole concept right now is so boringly flat for science, that AI sets of rules to pick from, are seriously flawed and they will ever be, no matter the bundled efforts at a spinning wheel.
     
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  20. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Search result from xml/sql files in "\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI"
    Code:
    Search "unittype_air" (18 hits in 3 files)
      \Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data\BehaviorTrees.xml (2 hits)
        Line 2072:     <Row DefnId="3" NodeId="36" TreeName="Siege City Assault" DefaultData="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE" />
        Line 2090:     <Row DefnId="3" NodeId="51" TreeName="Siege City Assault" DefaultData="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE" />
      \Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data\Operations.xml (8 hits)
        Line 73:     <Row TeamName="Simple Early Attack Force" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 81:     <Row TeamName="Simple City Attack Force" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 90:         <Row TeamName="City Attack Force" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE" MinNumber="0" MaxNumber="1" />
        Line 95:     <Row TeamName="City Attack Force" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 106:     <Row TeamName="Settle City Team" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 113:     <Row TeamName="City Defense" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 114:     <Row TeamName="City Defense" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE" MaxNumber="0" />
        Line 122:     <Row TeamName="Aid Ally Attack Force" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR" MaxNumber="0" />
      \Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data\Units.xml (8 hits)
        Line 141:         <Row AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR"/>
        Line 142:         <Row AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE"/>
        Line 342:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_BIPLANE" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR"/>
        Line 344:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_FIGHTER" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR"/>
        Line 347:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_BOMBER" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE"/>
        Line 349:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_JET_FIGHTER" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR"/>
        Line 352:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_JET_BOMBER" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR_SIEGE"/>
        Line 394:         <Row UnitType="UNIT_AMERICAN_P51" AiType="UNITTYPE_AIR"/>
    
     
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