Jaguar vs. Gallic Warrior vs. Praetorian -> How to fix the Jaguar?

[futurehermit]

Strengthening the Jag further would definitely be imbalanced for multiplayer.

Only if there wasn't something offsetting. E.g., if they made the cost more, but increased the strength. Not the most original, but would help imo. Or try different things. Plus tbh civ4 is more of a SP game than a MP game.

 

[TeraHammer]

Keep them as they are! You are only discussing city attack and vs AI play, while on multiplayer, they are really to be feared in those woods around your capital!!!

 

[druidravi]

I posted this idea a long time ago .

Jaguar -- 6 str , woodsman 1 , 50 hammers and 50 % production bonus with copper / iron .

Without resource they cost 50 hammers
With copper or iron they cost around 35 hammers .

 

[futurehermit]

not bad at all

 

[VirusMonster]

Hmm, I thought about this Jaguar issue again, and I don't think they need a boost.

I changed my mind, because I read the following articles on unit healing:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5811533
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3671223

If you want Medic III to stack with Woodsman III healing, the only way seems if they are both on the same unit. It will not work if they are on different units. Thus, a Jaguar with CombatI and WoodmanI needs to be promoted only 5 times to achieve WoodmanIII, Medic III promotion.

Most other units in the game need 50 or 37 experience to reach the uber-healer status. Despite their lack of city attack capabilities, I think Jaguars are balanced due to superior healing potential.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

let's see... pikes require iron(maces can be done with copper too); xbows require iron; knights require iron('xcept for saladin's joke). Cuirassers require iron. All of the wooden ships from astronomy(frigate, privateer, ship of the line... heck, even the ironclad requires iron in an unexpected way )

I remember even now the only game in which I actually lacked iron... ok, I lacked copper too. Heck, even asoka thought in that game I'm riped for conquest(was like, wtf, since when is asoka ever declaring...). Point is, not requiring iron is a... ugh, hey, noone likes camel archers... they don't require either horses nor iron, yet they're weak. Why? Because you always have iron. The rng gods are nice and always put iron near you. It's like the sun and the moon... there's always iron near you...

It's an uber unit for hiding in the woods. Fine... pitty that hiding in the woods never won a war. I mean, yeah, sometimes the ai put some 1-2 whatever unit in the woods and sit there... I always wondered why the heck does he expect me to attack since his units do nothing but eat his money. Also, you can't pillage with them either. They still move one, so either you sit in the forest or you get out and get creamed. Plus, beside vital resources I never pillaged a cottage except late game stalling with carriers razing every improvement on some other continent I didn't plan to conquer... Why would you pillage your future cottages anyway?

Ok, you get m3/w3 for an uber doc. Really, it's too little for an uu.

Worse - they start with 1 worker on immortal, don't they? The 1st thing they do is chop their forests. Heck, even you who have more brains then the ai still have to chop in order to rush things...

The uu is just bad; which wouldn't be an issue per se, since there are also other crap uus. However, a bad uu, with a bad combo of starting techs, with mediocre aggresive, ok paired with the very much to my liking spiritual... something has to be beefed up at monty. Lately I've been able to win most of my random leader games on immortal. Yet, I don't play with saladin and I still don't play with monty; ok, the rng gods can give me a less chessy leader, that's why I set random leader to start with. However... it can be that bad... monty is... overall, too bad.

 

[Willem]

At higher difficulties, you have no chance once they reach longbows, and you'll probably need catapults vs 40%-50% cities.

Well that's the case with regular Swordsman as well. Longbowman are tough defenders. Unless you have Cats and Maceman, any attack against them is going to be difficult. They have a base strength of 6, the same as a Swordsman, with a 25% city defence bonus which makes them hard to take out.

 

[Iranon]

I rather like Monty; the Altar has some very interesting applications (sustainable whipping at very small city sizes when it's at its most efficient) and I also quite like the Woodsman promotion. Easy worker stealing and decent for pillaging, mobile enough to raze lightly defended cities... I find them good for harassment if not conquest.

Most of their utility stems from the failure of the AI to account for their faster movement through forests, but in Single Player I'm not complaining. Yes their true usefulness is somewhat map-dependent... but still, they're an interesting variation and they get a bonus that sticks.

 

[mercury529]

I rather like Monty; the Altar has some very interesting applications (sustainable whipping at very small city sizes when it's at its most efficient) and I also quite like the Woodsman promotion. Easy worker stealing and decent for pillaging, mobile enough to raze lightly defended cities... I find them good for harassment if not conquest.

Most of their utility stems from the failure of the AI to account for their faster movement through forests, but in Single Player I'm not complaining. Yes their true usefulness is somewhat map-dependent... but still, they're an interesting variation and they get a bonus that sticks.

Personally I would be much happier with the Jaguar if you were able to build both Swordsmen and Jaguars. You would not have to sacrifice the advantages a Swordsman gets just because you play as the Aztecs. it would give you some nice options: Jags for healing/harrassment AND Swordsmen for city raiding.

 

[MyOtherName]

Expanding upon that -- there are several UU's with the problem that, sometimes, you want the original.


So, there are two questions:

(1) Why not just provide a mechanism for any CIV to build the original instead of their UU, if desired?

(2) Is the current way a feature for balancing civs and/or encouraging certain types of gameplay?


It would be interesting to hear thoughts on (2); e.g. is Montezuma of the Aztecs sufficiently good that it would be (slightly) unbalancing to allow him to build swordsmen and jaguars?

 

[Emac78]

The most important thing about the jag is that it does not need any resource to build. Of course this only applies to the early game. The Aztecs do not have to worry about hooking up iron to get their swordsmen. Therefore as soon as iron working is teched they can build their "swordsmen" while everybody else has to find the iron and hook it up. Yes, iron is usually abundant but it can still sometimes be many turns before it is hooked up while the Aztecs can just start rushing out the jags and start an early war as the other civ is likely to still only have archers or maybe axemen and/or chariots. When the jags find the resources and cut them off, you're screwed because you have to get the copper, iron, or horses while the Aztecs can even start building jags in your weaker cities that they have already conquered. Once the catapults come knocking at your gates you're dead.

 

[Diamondeye]

Considering the math in the original post (I havent read further), the second city raider promotion only adds 25% for a total of 45%. So atleast your Gallic Warrior calcs are a bit off, and dunno about swords. Also, by fixing the jaguar, I do not hope you mean making it as overpowered as the original post says. Adding 50% CR to Woodsman III would be imba and illogical. It has the benefits of more than 2 medic promos, more than 2 drill promos, and eliminate enemy +% when in forests... that's basically 5 promos worth, and you get it by wasting 3, with Jags 2 promos... You are correct that the Jag is not good at attacking cities, because that is not what it is for! It's an awesome unit for defending your alnd if you come to realize you have no metals. If you have, use axes for attacking. Simple as that.

If any, I'd say the Jags should have str 6 but no +10% city raider innate ability...

 

[VirusMonster]

Considering the math in the original post (I havent read further), the second city raider promotion only adds 25% for a total of 45%. So atleast your Gallic Warrior calcs are a bit off, and dunno about swords. Also, by fixing the jaguar, I do not hope you mean making it as overpowered as the original post says. Adding 50% CR to Woodsman III would be imba and illogical. It has the benefits of more than 2 medic promos, more than 2 drill promos, and eliminate enemy +% when in forests... that's basically 5 promos worth, and you get it by wasting 3, with Jags 2 promos... You are correct that the Jag is not good at attacking cities, because that is not what it is for! It's an awesome unit for defending your alnd if you come to realize you have no metals. If you have, use axes for attacking. Simple as that.

If any, I'd say the Jags should have str 6 but no +10% city raider innate ability...

hmm, thank you. I'll read the article again and fix if I miswrote about the 2nd CR bonus being +30%.

 

[gettingfat]

Jags are for blitzing and pillaging. Just scout well ahead and find out which cities have a forest/jungle tile right next to the city that hasn't been cleared, then surprise attack a couple of selected cities and send in a couple of suicide units to pillage the metal tiles to prevent further axe production. In BtS there are so many forests and jungles that you can take advantage of. They are actually a fun UU. If you want them to be strength 6, then you need to raise the hammers back to normal.

The problem though, is Montsy really has no economy to speak of.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Heh, apart from the whip economy with those sacrificial altars of his. Ever wondered why Monty builds huge stacks that can be a worry (he loves his pillaging) despite being behind in tech?

 

[nar]

The trouble with "How to fix the Jaguar" is that it bumps right against a much larger issue - balance in SP is a very different creature than balance in MP.

Unfortunately, I don't really see any way to get around this other than a different set of units for MP than for SP, which doesn't seem like the sort of thing Firaxis would be willing to do.

 

[VirusMonster]

Welcome to forums nar =) hmm I just wished Jaguars had like +25-30% city attack instead of +10%, that would make them perfectly balanced.

 

[Roxlimn]

That actually might run the risk of making them even stronger than Praetorians. No, I'm not exaggerating.

 

[Molybdeus]

To kill 2 fortified forest jags you need 6-8 shock promoted axes.....

If you are going leave your jaguars fortified in forests away from my cities then I don't need to kill them anyway. ;-)

The problem with Woodsman III jags is that they are worse than vanilla swordsmen in the initial rush. Too few of your strength deprived jaguars will survive long enough to get Woodsman III.

I suggest bringing them back to Strength 6, removing Woodsman I and let them simply be cheap swordsmen you can build w/o iron.

 

[parachute4u]

I tried a game on epic/monarch, researching iron working straight away. I did not build anything No warrior, worker, or settler. Popped a scout with my start scout from a hut, started stonehenge in the capital on turn 1, then build a barracks and 6 jags, then declared on Spain (which was closest (15-20 tiles) away)
I took down entire spain (3 cities) with about 10 jag warriors, giving me two holy cities, a bunch of workers, some pillage money, a great general and a bunch of cr2 jags.
Then I moved on to the next target, researching math and construction.
Expansion was so fast, the barbs have cities between my capital and Madrid.

I declared on Ragnar, who was trying to settle the land towards my capital and took his capital and wonder city (with pyramids in it) with catapults and 8-10 jags.

I consider the game basically won now. The jags are available extremely early, woodsman is a bonus, not their main use IMO. Jags can take cities, but they have to be fast to do it. I never use swordsmen with other leaders, because they are available too late to be useful usually.