Jaguar vs. Gallic Warrior vs. Praetorian -> How to fix the Jaguar?

[Guardian_PL]

I see I was a bit misunderstood. Jaguars are ok-ish. Can be fun, providing there's enough jungle/woods to storm through. But in most cases they suck.

As shocking as it sounds, I'd rather be a Khmer and have a dangerous Phants than be deprived from a proper Swordsman unit as an Aztec.

NOW

Remember Gallic Warriors? They had 5 too in Warlords. Now they have six and everyone will admit they they have their uses, especially with Guerilla III.

The only possible explanation of leaving Jags at 5 is that AI Monty would be VERY, very dangerous. I personally don't mind (Monty is always #1 on my "to kill" list, very rarely I'm befriending him), but I realize that, say, on Deity it could be a disaster to face bazillions of 6 Jags.

 

[slobberinbear]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already in the Jag-slam, but Monty can reach Theology quite quickly with his starting Mysticism. Hunting is need for Archery, which is needed for Horse Archers. Diversify your stack and the "weakness" of the Jag is not so apparent. Horse units and Woodsman II Jags can keep pace using different paths and can reach a city at the same time. His aggressive trait gives him quick barracks and so with the free CI and Woodsman, the Jag has got some options for promotions. As someone stated early in the thread, mixed stacks are the way to go. If people are complaining about the difficulty in taking cities with Jags, maybe they are missing something.

The ability for Monty to get Theology or Feudalism from the Oracle (and the +2 xp from either Theocracy or Vassalage) is big. The only downside: using the Oracle tech for Code of Laws gives Monty his Sacrificial Altars, making it a very attractive free tech.

I generally play one of two kinds of Monty games: a Jag-heavy game focusing on an early trek to Iron Working, or a more traditional expand and conquer game emphasizing religion and the sacrificial altar -- where war is in the late Classical period and the Jags are in a "Raider" or traditional swordsman role.

 

[vicawoo]

Gallic warriors, 6 strength, always.

Camping, -1 or 2 gold per unit to choke a civilization.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

it would be overpowered. simplistic reasoning from youth whine for "more strength" because they neither have the finesses or strategic where with all to utilize anything that is not "walk up and bash them with catapults and uu's"
it is a bit touching in its naivete, i suppose, "give them more strenth" in addition to...
resourcelessness, aggressive with free combat and woodsman. Like a kid that wants more- understandable and completely counter intuitive to making units "unique".
anyone that struggles with a jag is predisposed to noble and below and would be better served playing a simple added strength uu so they don't get confused and cry home to mama if they lose a few units.

Right on brother!!

 

[Ibian]

Still, it is a good point that Monty lacks some city crackers. A handful of jags can choke another civ for a reasonable price, but you will still need cats to take most cities.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Sorry, my bad. I have no idea why I always thought that Gallic Warrior had 5str initially and it was changed to 6 in some patch. Nevermind.

My reasoning is, if we have Praets, Cataphracts or other War Chariots I see no reason to bring Jaguar to Swordsman strength. So Jag can run through forest and be hard to kill there. Yay. The moment he'll step on the open field to snatch a worker or pillage it will be the end of him. Not to mention that for pillaging simple Chariot will be better.

I can understand why Numidian Mercenary has lowered strength - innate bonus vs melee makes it more then efficient. Jags can run through forests. And jungles. So it can be fun when playing Rain Forest map

 

[Ibian]

Well this is the early game we are talking about, so any civ close enough to want to harass will have somewhat limited land. Given that the first X units outside your border are free to support, it very well could be free to choke another civ with jags.

 

[slobberinbear]

If you focus early in the game, you can do a Jag rush that can be superior to an axe rush. How so? (a) Faster movement through forests/jungles with Woodsman II and (b) you're fighting archers, not melee units. If you do it soon enough, 8-12 Combat I / Woodsman II Jags can take out a nearby opposing non-Protective / non-holy city capital and satellite cities. By getting to the enemy capital faster, you end up facing fewer units, because the AI has less time to build defenses after you declare war. You are also getting to the enemy border several turns faster than with an axe stack.

You just have to beeline Iron Working and build/whip units from two, possibly three cities ASAP. I can verify that this is doable on Monarch difficulty and below. Remember that against city defenders, the Jag is 5.5 strength with a 10% city attack bonus that helps knock down the archers' defensive bonuses a little.

The jag rush is the functional equivalent of a war chariot rush.

 

[Ibian]

IW is a big tech that early in the game. If you have copper then you wont get more/faster jags than if you went with axes, and woods2 means no city raiding, and the axes will be stronger - unless you give the jags CR which means no double movement.

Im beginning to think they are underpowered. They are hard to remove from a forest, but so is a normal sword. They make great medics, but thats kind of a very small niche role for a UU. They also make good defenders, but normal units defend just as well against any single unit, so at most you might save 1-2 defender units this way.

 

[slobberinbear]

I hear you, Ibian, but the point is that copper is fairly rare in BTS and Jags are resourceless. You just have to beeline the tech. This also frees you up to settle uber-food sites to whip them out.

They're not underpowered -- they're just useful for a short time, like Quechas. I would argue that they are more useful than standard swordsmen due to their resourceless nature and starting with combat I and woodsman I. Do they have the long-term power of axemen (and axemen UUs?) and praets? No. But swordsmen are already a bit of a specialty unit.

 

[Ibian]

I just dont see how resourceless should have to equal downgrade/sidegrade depending how you look at it.

Other UUs are straight upgrades. Dog soldiers are resourceless and better than normal axes, vultures are a straight upgrade, phalanxes are a stright upgrade that essentially obsoletes chariots, Izzy gets mounted units that get defensive bonuses etc. I cant think of any other UU that is arguably weaker than the base unit.

If i were to suggest a change, it would probably be something like giving them an attack bonus when attacking into a forest, enough to take down an axe... so +100%. Enemy units would be limited to flatland where they dont get defensive bonuses, making the Aztecs the rulers of the forest and jungle.

 

[slobberinbear]

Resourceless means the unit is available sooner than its peers and is unpiilageable. This has value. Combined with Combat I and Woodsman I, the Jag has a place at the table if you use it correctly. You wouldn't try to make a Quecha a Praetorian ... so why try to make a Jag a Vulture?

I would also argue that the Dog Soldier and Jag are very analogous -- both have a reduced base strength and heightened specialty in their area. Both are slightly weaker overall, but both are resourceless.

 

[Ibian]

Chariots will run over normal axes as fast as dog soldiers, so their downside is practically nonexistent while still performing better against melee. Its slightly worse as a city raider when up against archers, but you typically need 2 axes for every archer you take down so this doesnt really change either.

Quecha are the warrior version of prats. Overpowered with no downside.

The jag is a pure downgrade in terms of combat potential, with better access to medic promotions and easier access to fast forest movement in compensation. It cant do anything meaningfully better than other units except move around in forest. Just doesnt seem like a good trade.

 

[troytheface]

Jags fight horse, spear arrow and on defense axe.
Chariots - spear death, no inherant defense.
Fact: Jags slice threw cities better than any other unit as per thousands and millions of tests.
Fact: Early game- tons of woods.
Fact: Some can't use Jags because they are inept at best, cowardly horse builders at worst

 

[Ibian]

Fact: Jags slice threw cities better than any other unit as per thousands and millions of tests.

Explain.

8, 9, 10 chars

 

[troytheface]

well horse and sword with gallics or jags are lethal. But i like chariots for the graphic
and they can come earlier- they lack punch to be city takers in my experience.
Whereas the godlike Jag i can't tell any difference at all with a regular sword, exept the graphic is cooler , the color is like an evil green, and they can move.
But the jag life is short. i use'em til their dead and rarely upgrade.

 

[Ibian]

I think im gonna need more booze before you start making sense.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Ibian, pay no attention to forum trolls

@Slobberinbear
Of course that Jaguars can be leveraged, like You've nicely described in Your Montezuma's Revenge.
People mention choking, which can be very efficient. Still, choking can stifle economy, and imo can lead to lower score in the end, because one or more of AI's didn't develop, didn't tech, didn't improve the land and consequently didn't allow You to trade. It's cool to eventually kill that choked civilization, and be happy about vast amount of land to settle, but... We have no trade for resources (AI workers were inside city all the time), techs and gold. If Imperialistic, Settler spam is nice, but otherwise it's good to let the AI build and prepare cities for You.

As for resourcelessness... Well, copper is to be found, and if not with Iron, it would be better to build some Swords, give them CR... Oh hey, Aztec have no Swordsman unit... Or rather they do, but it's 5 and instead of CR we're pumping woodsman promos there...

Honestly, it's good to build few Jags to jog through woods and jungles, perhaps disrupt road here and there or nab a worker. But axes and swords (the latter that Aztec's don't have) does the job better.

Native Americans? Please, they have hyper totem pole archers to accompany Dog Soldiers. Aztecs have a leader with a funny hat.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

I just played a very enjoyable game as the Aztecs and I was able to take out plenty of cities with their 2 or 3 archers quite easily with my WII jags. Some got a CR promotion, while others got a WIII. I gotta tell you, the WIII is addictive, the healing and the first strikes to counter the archers' ones is great. Then when I reached Machinery (got Civil Service way back) I was able to up grade my WIII, CR2 jags into some kickass Macemen. The WIII promotion makes the Maces like Samurai almost, accept that it can heal itself. Throw a Medic, WIII in the stack and you are set! I only built a few Cats near the end as the civs on the other side of the map had the culture up and the axeman at home.

I will admit that the pillaging of their copper or iron was tough when they would hit my jags, but I reckon a Shock, WII or WIII jags could handle it. The problem was that I was going Jags only, hence the AI would counter with their anti-Melee unit. Throw in a few WII axes of your own and your jags are not as vulnerable. Jags, kick ass!

 

[troytheface]

Gaurdian's accusation is like a closet case homophobe whose job it is to point out who is gay. But since slander seems to be the name of the game- read the above post- not on original thought or perception. if he is like 10 i apologise.