Jama Barre - Still the most broken leader.

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by S.K. Ren, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. S.K. Ren

    S.K. Ren Prince

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    And we thought a free OER was bad. His new UA gives specialists +1/1/2 yields. How is this over powered? Student Aid is how. Inevitably an AI will have this available, turning your cities into absolute monsters. Who needs improvements when a Mass Digester turns 3 citizens into 12 food with no upkeep? Culture, Science, Production and Food become trivial. All you need to do is make water cities and move them together at no loss. And even without Student Aid, it makes Specialists almost always superior to a tile.

    ICS is dead. Long Live ICS.
     
  2. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Prince

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    In absolute terms, yes, AU sounds broken. In relative terms, however, AU is not broken.

    There are many ways of achieving balance. You could either have each sponsor having rather weak UAs providing flexible ways of using them or very strong UAs that create rather nuanced strategies, as you have pointed out with mass digesters. So that's the real debate here.

    I don't mind either, so long as there's a level playing field. If you're going to have both, it can be rather tricky to achieve. AU gets insane growth, ok. Polystralia gets insane energy output, ok. INTGR gets insane diplomatic capital, ok. However, Brazilia is still weak and to a lesser extent, so is KP and Frano Iberia. Although there are several ways to play these sponsors, Brazilia is still nuanced towards military and Might virtue because how else can you use his UA during peacetime? Killing aliens might not be viable if you have colossal aliens attacking you.
     
  3. Alkaid

    Alkaid Warlord

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    God that sounds pretty great. Too bad with insanity like Hutama TRs, Chungsu agent spam and Al-Falah late-game conversion it sounds tame in comparison.

    I'll definitely give that a try soon though, I haven't used him yet for RT.

    I wonder if the AI actually uses specialists much. I certainly haven't noticed Samatar showing signs of his UA doing anything significant for the AI. He's actually been doing pretty bad in most of my recent games. Then again Brasilia and Franco-Iberia have regularly been doing among the best, so..
     
  4. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram King

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    INTEGR is stronger than PAU so Barre's UA cannot possibly be OP to the point of being broken. Barre needs to stack with Student Aid to get super-powered but PAC or Al Falah are stronger with the right agreements (cooperating or Allied with Hutama and Elodie to be exact). The ONLY underpowered sponsors are Franco-Iberia (but that could be fixed to change her UA to +1/2/3 free virtues for every 10 purchased with culture) and Kavithan Protectorate (no clue how to fix).
     
  5. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    I have already tried the specialist strategy, but I am not sure if it is even viable.

    If the game would last long enough, I'd say that AU could actually be competetive. But the problem here is that games are over around turn 150-190 (depending on how hard you abuse ruins), so the specialists don't really have time to shine.

    On top of that you have to construct all these buildings first - and since conversion is super powerful now, that means each turn you are not converting is a big science loss that you have to compensate. That means an Institute costs ~150 science, so the first 10 turns of science generation are lost to compensate the build time.

    And lastely the AI is actually not that keen on picking the health trait - which is my biggest gripe for this strategy. The fact that you have to rely on outside factors beyond your control to make it truly powerful is... meh...

    I think the *actual* advantage of the AU specialist economy are threefold:

    (1) It takes a lot less time (compared to Academies) to get things going. If you rush Institutes, your specialists will significantly outproduce an Academy focused player for the first 20-30 turns or so. The downside is that you have to give up the free tech for something suboptimal (I usually go with Nanotechnology to get the Nanopasture).

    (2) It's almost independened of terrain. Since most of your yields come from trade routes, you can literally settle anywhere and still get decent science.

    (3) The AI loves your agreements, so you will usually get tons of diplomatic capital very early. I had games with 60 income at turn 50. That's pretty sweet to speed up buyouts and the like.
     
  6. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I actually think Barre is an example of a good, balanced, Sponsor perk.
     
  7. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    If by that you mean it's a good baseline to scale other sponsors, then I agree with that: For me personally he's on the sweet spot between having a unique ability that changes things up and not having your game completely dominated by that.
     
  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Yeah, precisely.
     
  9. Alkaid

    Alkaid Warlord

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    It's a shame though that what makes him so unique now is mainly the fact you actually use specialists with him. If specialists were actually worth anything in the game outside of Barre with his UA, as they should be, he might not feel as unique as he currently is. (he'd still be good though, not knocking that)
     
  10. hevans900

    hevans900 Chieftain

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    Yeah - I just played a game versus Apollo Hutama and he had 700 score by turn 35... the other AIs had less than 250. He proceeded to declare war on all other 7 sponsors because he was so disgusted with their lack of economy compared to his :D :D :crazyeye:

    The UAs are COMPLETELY out of whack right now in terms of balance, for the poor AIs and for us.

    I feel bad to those other AI sponsors having to get dominated by Hutama every game.

    Save the AIs. Join my petition now. Think about poor Kavitha.
     
  11. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    It's certainly much more enjoyable than his old trait.

    Yeah, not gonna lie - adding a wonder and some general virtues for a specialist economy would be cool. Maybe he should get the "free food" stuff and the +yields should be moved to a trait. That way he is okay even when not fully focusing on specialists, while anyone has a chance to go for a specialist economy.
     
  12. WiseGreen

    WiseGreen Warlord

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    One thing that might be cool would be transitioning the specialist tenets from the Freedom Ideology in CiV to the virtue trees (specialists only consume half food / specialists only cause half unhappiness), maybe even in different ones (health in Prosperity and food in Knowledge, maybe).
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    That's really similar to PAC, Wonders aren't really worth building for anyone else.
     

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