James Bond vs Jack Sparrow...

[Ovidian]

Ok, so it’s been a while since I’ve posted. Actually, 2006 to be exact. Recently, got back into it with Warlords and have been messing about with BTS for a week or so. With the original Civ IV, I kind of, sort of knew what I was doing. Now…not so much. So many changes…anyway…

I need some help, guidance, thoughts, and general randomness about Spies. I’ve looked through the forum all night (well, more like 15 minutes, but it seemed longer ) and couldn’t find what I needed.

Counter Espionage- Every 10 turns, I get that. Either the Intelligence Agency or the Security Bureau (can’t remember which) also helps. I get that too. What I don’t know is if keeping an actual Spy rooted in your city also helps. In theory, wouldn’t that increase your chances of catching him/her? I thought it was a good idea until my current game. I’ve got 41 cities so far. So…yes, I have 41 spies in them. I looked around and thought to myself “This can’t be right.” Can it?

Magical Teleporting Spies- I understand the game mechanics of the Spy; after completing a mission he returns to your capital. Ok, fine. Except if you’re playing a map with more than one land mass. In my current game, I own one continent (the Ethiopians and the Dutch were nice enough to give me everything they owned) and am currently waging war on the other continent (I’m into real estate…). So my Spies do their thing and they’re suddenly whisked away across the sea to my capitol on the other continent. Um…am I doing something wrong because that’s just insane. Hmm, maybe I could teach my Tanks to do that…I’d be in business…

The Warmonger’s Lament- Am I the only one that feels guilty building Spies when I “should” be building military units? I haven’t been playing BTS long at all, but it seems like the Spy/Espionage thing is a dominant theme. I don’t know…sometimes they seem like more trouble then they’re worth because my rep with other Civs goes down and down after my Spies are repeatedly and endlessly caught. Do most Warmongers here really “feature” the Spies or just basically use them for Counter Espionage?

The Bright Spot- As “iffy” as I am on the Spies, I am in absolute love with the Privateers. I caught on to that real quick. Nothing warms my heart more than my stack of Privateers completely terrorizing a coastline. Hurts the cities, dents their economies, stunts the growth of their coastal cities (because all they do is build their little ships instead of improving their city). Then when the frigates come, it’s kind of sad. But then when they come back to port…”if” they make it back, the upgrade to Destroyer is juicy. Man…give me a Privateer over a Spy any day. And just to be clear…is everyone stacking them, one or two have the Medic promotion and maybe even a GG? It seemed wise to me, but maybe there’s a better strategy out there that I haven’t picked up on yet. Oh, I also use the Caravels as “spotters”…moving in and about in the fog so my Privateers aren’t at risk.

Ok then, if you’re still awake, thanks in advance for any help, guidance, thoughts or general randomness…

 

[sagji]

There is a bonus for the Security Bureau, or for a spy in the same tile as the enemy spy, but no additional benefit for both.
A spy always teleports home.
Warmongers use spies to forment revolt which removed the city's defense for a turn, and then attack the city. A Spy is only of benefit in a tile the enemy spy is in in your turn, and not if it is also a city with Security Bureau, so you generally only need spies on the border cities.

With privateers remember that you can't defend them by stacking them with your own units unless you are at war with the attacker.

 

[Fei Kelei]

My favorite time for spies is in the early game as soon as I get Alphabet. Build the Great Wall, settle the Great Spy you'll hopefully get as your first great person, direct all or at least most of your EPs at a neighbor (ideally of the same religion and a good techer), and just steal your way to a tech lead. After they get Code of Laws and build courthouses it's probably a good idea to back off and spread your EPs around, but I can usually get a lot of beakers' worth of techs before that happens. Later in the game I don't use them much at all, since I'd rather keep the EPs so I can see as many of my rivals' research as possible. I really should use them more in war, though, since the city revolt mission especially is quite useful, and there's no reason not to use every EP you have against a civ that you're about to make extinct.

An added bonus of Privateers that you didn't mention is that the EXP they gain goes toward generating a great general just like any other unit, so they're still somewhat useful even if all you can do park them in your cities and ambush caravels because there are too many Frigates around. Also note that sea units can enter coastal forts now, so besides the possibility of canals, a strategically placed fort is a great hiding/healing spot for your Privateers. Also also note that any vassals you may have will still consider your Privateers barbarians, so their waters aren't safe. It's very annoying to have your own vassal's Frigates chase your Privateers all over the ocean.

 

[Dhaulagiri]

So my Spies do their thing and they’re suddenly whisked away across the sea to my capitol on the other continent. Um…am I doing something wrong because that’s just insane. Hmm, maybe I could teach my Tanks to do that…I’d be in business… [endquote]

*cant remember how to quote...
Each turn is like a minumum of 6 months in the modern age, so its not too unrealistic. Now your scouts exploring for 1500 years early on is a different story.

 

[Fei Kelei]

*cant remember how to quote...

It's just like that except with a "/" instead of "end." Or you could just use the button on the bottom of every post that says "quote."

 

[Shurdus]

So my Spies do their thing and they’re suddenly whisked away across the sea to my capitol on the other continent. Um…am I doing something wrong because that’s just insane. Hmm, maybe I could teach my Tanks to do that…I’d be in business… [endquote]

*cant remember how to quote...
Each turn is like a minumum of 6 months in the modern age, so its not too unrealistic. Now your scouts exploring for 1500 years early on is a different story.

You can use the "quote" button beneath a post to quote, of you can add

and then [ /quote ] without the spaces.

Anyway, I think there is not much logic to be found in the rules that spies teleport back. It is just a game mechanic that is functional rather than realistic. I think of it as the spy "reporting back" or something. This way they force you to do that.

To the OP: you are doing nothing wrong, the game functions like that.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Am I the only one that feels guilty building Spies when I “should” be building military units? I haven’t been playing BTS long at all, but it seems like the Spy/Espionage thing is a dominant theme. I don’t know…sometimes they seem like more trouble then they’re worth because my rep with other Civs goes down and down after my Spies are repeatedly and endlessly caught. Do most Warmongers here really “feature” the Spies or just basically use them for Counter Espionage?

Espionage is great for warmongers for several reasons.

1. Almost all the espionage building produce free EPs, the more cities you have the more buildings you can build to take advantage of these free EPs.

2. If you build the Great Wall, you can throw down Scotland Yard and rely almost totally on Espionage for your tech - since the capitol is the only one getting that fat 100% (or any modifier until Engineering) bonus you only really need to build up your capitol economically, most of your cities can just churn out units - as long as you have the cash generation to support your burgeoning empire.

3. Because you're a warmonger you'll generally have a war advantage over anyone you have tech parity with. You have better production with your larger empire, and will be producing better units because of Great Generals from previous wars - and perhaps even have a trait or two to make your units bettter.

4. Also, don't forget to capture/found a holy city. If you control the holy city of your state religion you get a nice fat -25% mission modifier to spy missions which can make a huge difference.

If done right tech stealing is far, far, more efficient than researching techs yourself. To give you an example, this past week I was playing a Lan game again my roommate. After killing the french early he had a big nice continent all to himself with a ton of floodplains, while I'm on the main continent screwed with plains everywhere. He starts pulling into a commanding lead tech-wise, but I capture the Buddhist Shrine from the AI, so figure why not - I'm falling behind and I have a shrine might as well go espionage.

Cut to the industrial era. I'm producing about ~1000 EPs a turn. After stealing pretty heavily from a particular AI, I turn around concentrate my espionage towards my roommate and smuggle some spies onto his continent. I rub my hands in glee because I have:
trade route cost modifier
different religion modifier
holy city modifier
maxxed out espionage spending modifier
I'm looking at mission costs of around 20%-15% base. That's nuts. From the EPs I had accumulated against him for about 10 turns I manage to steal:

Replaceable Parts
Physics
Biology
Steam Engine
Steel
Rifling

in two turns.

Build the Great Wall, settle the Great Spy you'll hopefully get as your first great person, direct all or at least most of your EPs at a neighbor (ideally of the same religion and a good techer), and just steal your way to a tech lead.

Same religion? I've seen this advice before and don't understand it. You want to spy on people with a different state religion. If you run missions against someone who has a different state religion, and your state religion is present in the target city you get a -15% mission cost modifier. I often kick myself because I sometimes spread my state religion too aggressively and my opponent converts robbing me of that modifier.

An added bonus of Privateers that you didn't mention is that the EXP they gain goes toward generating a great general just like any other unit

Something of which I was not aware, I'll have to build more privateers in future games.

 

[Ovidian]

First, thanks to one and all for the help. I greatly appreciate it.

2. If you build the Great Wall, you can throw down Scotland Yard and rely almost totally on Espionage for your tech - since the capitol is the only one getting that fat 100% (or any modifier until Engineering) bonus you only really need to build up your capitol economically, most of your cities can just churn out units - as long as you have the cash generation to support your burgeoning empire.

I know each game is situational. Yet, when you're planning to use Espionage to steal techs, what does your Espionage percentage look like in comparison to your Research percentage (and your economy is in pretty decent shape)?

Like I said, I've only been playing BTS for a very short time. Still trying to get a feel for it and learn how to incorperate it into my game.

And since I have a few fellow Warmongers hanging about...over-sea maintenance. Wow, they weren't joking around about that one. When you're invading another continent with a few Civ's, are you...
1. Only keeping the decent cities and destroying the others?
2. Keeping the decent cities, destroying the others, and using settlers of your own to start new cities?
3. Keeping the decent ones and then having a bunch of colonies?
4. Systemactically waging war only to cripple the other Civs, giving up on the Domination/Conquest all together and just going Space Race?

 

[Fei Kelei]

3. Keeping the decent ones and then having a bunch of colonies?

I've been having fun doing this recently. The nicest thing is that about it is the garrison troops that appear when you gift each newly conquered city to your colony, so you can just have a 100% attacking army and it can stay on the move. Obviously there are downsides (counts less towards domination victory, more complicated diplomacy, etc.) and you wouldn't want to do it in every case, but it is a nice option to have and a fun way to fight a war.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

First, thanks to one and all for the help. I greatly appreciate it.

I know each game is situational. Yet, when you're planning to use Espionage to steal techs, what does your Espionage percentage look like in comparison to your Research percentage (and your economy is in pretty decent shape)?

As always in Civ - It Depends.

Sometimes I'll run it maxxed out with 0% science, other times I'll only run it at 10% or at 0% relying primarily on the free EPs. Basically here's what decides how much I throw into the espionage slider and how much I manually tech:

1. What sort of discounts I can get on missions. There's:
A. - 20% Trade Route Modifier
B. -25% Holy City Modifier (if you control the holy city of your state religion and its present in the target city.)
C. -15% Different Religion Modifier (if you and your target are different religions and your state religion is present in the target city)
D. up to -40% Espionage Spending (the way this works is the game calculates how many EPs you and your opponent have accumulated against all targets over the course of the game, missions cost less if you've spent more, missions cost more if you've spent less
E. -50% stationary spy bonus
Then there's a couple things that make them cost more such as distance penalties and so on. Once it's all said and done; A 60% mission cost is mediocre, 45% is pretty decent, and once you can drop them below a third it gets nuts. You can also check the esipionage screen to see in which enemy city your missions will be cheapest.

2. My Science infrastructure compared to my Espionage infrastructure. With Scotland Yard you can often produce more EPs than you can Beakers with the slider and those EPs are more efficient than the equivalent amount of beakers due to the aforementioned mission cost modifiers.

3. The tech situation. The more catching up you have to do, the better espionage gets and vice versa. Also where I am in the tech tree, and if it's possible to use espionage to set up your manual research for techs that you want to reach first. For example you can use espionage to steal Philosophy then manually tech to Liberalism. Or you can steal Scientific Method to grab Physics or Communism.

Short Summary of Espionage: Espionage done right is almost always more efficient than science - but pays for it in that you're always the second to any tech; reducing trading opportunities, robbing you of "gets there first" bonuses, and greatly reducing your chance of getting wonders.

And since I have a few fellow Warmongers hanging about...over-sea maintenance. Wow, they weren't joking around about that one. When you're invading another continent with a few Civ's, are you...
1. Only keeping the decent cities and destroying the others?
2. Keeping the decent cities, destroying the others, and using settlers of your own to start new cities?
3. Keeping the decent ones and then having a bunch of colonies?
4. Systemactically waging war only to cripple the other Civs, giving up on the Domination/Conquest all together and just going Space Race?

None of the above. I accept capitulation as soon as it's offered then liberate all their old cities. As a vassal he'll give me all sorts of resources (handy for corporations), and automatically vote for me in Apostolic Palace and UN elections. I can tell him to tech for me, and he's automatically got my back in a war. The cities I capture are often culture-starved, will take ages to make productive again, and are bleeding me dry money-wise. I'm only too happy to let him take them off my hands. Also, he counts as conquered for conquest, and half his land and pop count for domination.

 

[BarrageQueen]

There's:
A. - 20% Trade Route Modifier
B. -25% Holy City Modifier (if you control the holy city of your state religion and its present in the target city.)
C. -15% Different Religion Modifier (if you and your target are different religions and your state religion is present in the target city)

That's interesting. I didn't know of these modifiers before. So let's say I control the Buddhist holy city and have a trade route with a foreign Buddhist target in a non-Buddhist state, I get a combined 60% off the espionage cost, correct? And you mentioned another maxed out modifier above. How much is that, another 20%? I'll have to try lots of espionage in my next game if enough of these conditions are met.

As for getting caught doing such heavy espionage, what are your experiences? Do you get caught often, and if so do you care much that you do? Any tips on getting caught less than more? Thanks in advance.

 

[QuixotesGhost]

Hey Barrage, I accidentally hit the "post reply" button early, before I was done writing. I ended up editing in the answers to your questions after you posted.

That's interesting. I didn't know of these modifiers before. So let's say I control the Buddhist holy city and have a trade route with a foreign Buddhist target in a non-Buddhist state, I get a combined 60% off the espionage cost, correct?

Quite correct. Civs in Free Religion always count as having a different state religion than you (unless you are free religion as well).

As for getting caught doing such heavy espionage, what are your experiences? Do you get caught often, and if so do you care much that you do? Any tips on getting caught less than more? Thanks in advance.

I generally build enough spies that it's no big deal if I get caught. I also try to steal from peaceful techers instead of hair-trigger maniacs. If I'm spending EPs towards someone I try to keep 4-5 spies sleeping in the city with the cheapest mission costs.

However, I have noticed where I spend a lot of EPs my spies seem to get caught much less. I'm not sure if espionage spending affects the mission rates, or it's just the fact I have alphabet first and my opponent doesn't have defending spies. I remember one time where I grabbed Great Wall for SY and sent my first spy on 5-6 successful missions before he was caught.

[Yet Another Ninja Edit]
Another use of Espionage. I'll commonly have empires that are hammer poor but commerce heavy. My research is pretty stellar, but I have trouble taking advantage of that shiny new unit that I just teched because I can't build an army fast enough. However, you can save on hammers by not building any siege weapons. Build some spies while your waiting for that next uber-tech, get them in position, and then just have them use the revolt mission instead of bringing siege. If you have a tech edge you often don't need collateral damage and the hammers you save on siege can be put towards building more units. [/Ninja Edit]