Japan for the first two ages.

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What shall it be?
Age 1
What shall be the name? Yamatai or Yamato?
UB or UQ. Haniwa cemetry.
UU (not what I can figure out easily)
UC: Hime
Age 2.
This is when Samurai shines. UU Infantry replacements (or cavalry). no dobut about it
But what else?
Name?
I'd like the term 'Shogunate'
Buildings
'Torii arch'
UC: Daimyo (replaces army commander).

I'd like to speculate early. if there should be any.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Yamato Japan and Edo Japan would be the names I’d use
Not sure about their uniques

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

I put together a Shōgunate concept with a unique Economic victory in which you gain points for having more copies of resources than other civs, with abilities to help you start by conquering the areas of the Homelands that also contain your Resources before you turtle down and try to maintain your monopoly. Of course, I'm biased, but I'd like to see something like that when Exploration Japan is added to the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Crazy idea but what about having Samurai as a unique great person, that way the military UU could be the Ashigaru?
Or I guess two military units can be a thing now, but I think the idea above sounds more interesting.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Daimyo could be a unique civilian unit

 

[Ryansinbela]

Should Edo Japan get a Tera quarter

 

[Lord Lakely]

Crazy idea but what about having Samurai as a unique great person, that way the military UU could be the Ashigaru?
Or I guess two military units can be a thing now, but I think the idea above sounds more interesting.

When I designed my Japanese Civilization for my own CIv7 Headcanon, I gave them a unique promotion system, where Ashigaru is the lowest promotion level and Samurai the highest. The core mechanic of that could be given to a Daimyo Unique Commander, who can passively promote his troops into Samurai after enough experience.

Also frees up the UU slot which can go to a naval unit, such as the akatebune warship.

 

[notNamed]

When I designed my Japanese Civilization for my own CIv7 Headcanon, I gave them a unique promotion system, where Ashigaru is the lowest promotion level and Samurai the highest. The core mechanic of that could be given to a Daimyo Unique Commander, who can passively promote his troops into Samurai after enough experience.

Also frees up the UU slot which can go to a naval unit, such as the akatebune warship.

Atakebune*

The samurai promotion thing works on a game design perspective but it gives a wrong historical impression. You can't officially become a samurai. The mobility into the samurai class during the wars comes from opportunism. You need to hide your upbringing, kill the people who can attest to it, fake your heritage and then do some more murder to empty a spot where you could slot yourself in as new-found aristocracy.
A great example is Hideyoshi, who everyone knew got where he was (the ruler of all Japan) by joining Nobunaga's ranks and making a name for himself... BUT when he stood at the top they told him "sorry, you're peasant-borne and the post of Shougun is exclusive to samurai". Since he couldn't murder half of Japan to hide his heritage, he set up his kid with a kid of the imperial line, thus his grandkids would become samurai as per definition (relatives of the imperial family through one of its three cadet branches that became the OG samurai clans).

Ironically, once Edo period rolled around, the class got expanded (once at the very start) with all people with military power. Which meant ALL ashigaru (a class of lifelong, non-hereditary soldiers) became official samurai. But neither of these scenarios maps onto the proposed game mechanic where you become a samurai during Sengoku and need to attain a level of prestige for it. Ultimately it would simply need a more careful naming and you could use it as-is. But a history game franchise, even if it goes for the lowest common denominator possible, should really strive not to worsen the horrid state of discourse on this topic on the Anglophone internet. And no, writing a few paragraphs on Civilopedia about how the game's just taking the easy way out does not cut it, it never has.

 

[The Fanatical]

Yes, Japan is planned to get three versions. Himiko proves it. The name Meiji proves it.

Antiquity Age

Yamato or Heian Japan should be the name, but both will need to be represented. Altough Jōmon was teased in the recent Dev Diary, I believe the team will have little to work with other than beautiful pottery. Yamato is the best choice because of the spectacular Kofun tombs (Unique Improvement)

and the Heian period can provide the units. The Unique Military Unit is a bit of a problem indeed. The only early unit of note that I can suggest is the Sōhei (warrior-monks with naginata and a head cowl). They came into existence from the
Heian era and onwards.

The Unique Civilian Unit should be a Great Poet (Kajin). Each will produce one or more Great Works of writing. Combine this with an ability that gives more culture on Great Works of art and you are all set for a cultural game.

Associated World Wonder:

Hōryū-ji

or Tōdai-ji

or Yakushi-ji

or Byōdō-in

Exploration Age

Sengoku is too tumultuous, so either Kamakura where the first Shogunate was established or Edo where the unification of Japan was completed. The problem with Edo is that it touches the Early modern era, but it comes before the Meiji period anyway. The Unique Military Unit definitely needs to be the Samurai with a katana (although the unit could use both katana and yari since it will replace the Men-at Arms) who will wear richly decorated kabuto with datemono as well as beautiful menpō and hanbō face masks. A combination of kosen dō (armour with scale) and tosei dō (armour with plates) would look varying enough with sashimono that have different mon on them attached to the back of the two armours.

Another option is the Ashigaru, but I prefer the infamous elite Samurai over them. Feudal Japan without Samurai is like Rome without Legions.
Now for the Unique Civilian Unit. A mounted Daimyo Commander wearing a moustached menpō and carrying a tessen or a gunbai war fan with two Ashigaru flag-bearers beside him is perfect.Since there will be three versions of Japan, the one in the Exploration Age will be Militaristic and Cultural, so the Daimyo is suitable.

The other option is the Shinobi, ten famous Shinobi will be picked for this unit. They will be unseen to adjacent enemy units, with more visibility and the function of each will vary from destroying the fortication of a city to damaging all the districts and worked tiles around a city cencer of the target city to assassinating an adjacent enemy Commander to giving a combat penalty to an enemy Commander's force to making enemy units inside a city immobile for two turns to gaining +1 insight depending on the owner civilization of the city that is targeted.

Unique Quarter:

Jingū-ji (shrine-temple complex with a pagoda)

or Tenshu (Unique Improvement similar to the Donjon that will be based on Osaka Castle)

Associated World Wonder:

Kōtoku-in

or Himeji Castle

 

[notNamed]

Just some notes.

and the Heian period can provide the units. The Unique Military Unit is a bit of a problem indeed. The only early unit of note that I can suggest is the Sōhei (warrior-monks with naginata and a head cowl). They came into existence from the
Heian era and onwards.
View attachment 715544View attachment 715543

The image you're talking about has nothing to do with Heian period. We have no evidence of naginata existence during Heian period proper and likewise, the image of souhei you're proposing is completely detached from the period. What existed during Heian period were warriors contracted by the monasteries. Regular warriors who do the bidding of the monastery in question wearing normal weapons and armor.

Consult The Teeth and Claws of Buddha by Mikael S. Adolphson, specifically chapter 5: "Constructed Traditions: Sōhei and Benkei" which deals with the whole image, what these guys were and were not and how did we end up with the image of the dudes in shawls you see in Shogun 2 or Japanese shows.

Tōdai-ji

Toudaiji went through several development phases. Now, Civ 7 fairly blatantly attacks historical architecture to the poiint you could argue there's enough precedent to have the wonder be Tsukiji Hongwanji... but for the sake of people reading this getting something from reading our rambles, I must mention that Toudaiji photo is the modern one, built during Edo period. If you want to use it as a wonder for older periods, it is only appropriate to use the appropriate reconstruction of the building for that era.
On that same note, the Buddha of Kamakura you propose as a wonder later has the same problem. We keep it uncovered today (though there are initiatives to try and rebuild the temple around it) but historically it also had a massive hall to cover it up just like at Toudaiji.

View attachment 715556View attachment 715555

Another constructed tradition, this time completely fictional. While the warrior monk imagery has some historical precedent, there is nothing of the sort for ninjas.
They are spies like those of any other civ. Without special clothes. Without James Bond gadgets. Without Hollywood Thriller-tier heists to give them any historical prominence.
You could make Japanese spies a unique unit if you really, really wanted to but you would have to drop all the black dress, shuriken, etc. nonsense. And at that point, it kind of loses all appeal as a unique.

Unique Quarter:

Jingū-ji (shrine-temple complex with a pagoda)
View attachment 715559
or Tenshu (Unique Improvement similar to the Donjon that will be based on Osaka Castle)
View attachment 715560

As far as tenshu go, I'd suggest waiting until we see what Meiji brings to the table. There is evidence of a tenshu already being in the game and it could be tied to Meiji.
Especially in the context of Osaka castle, which is the posterchild of these modern efforts making concrete structures with metallic roofs as symbols of Japan's post-WW2 reconstruction for the locals (and great tourist traps), rather than the extravagant storehouses trying to ape Nobunaga's idea (of visibly projecting power through opulence) during Azuchi-Momoyama period.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Not Yamatai where Himiko ruled?
or is 'Yamatai' (which believed to be in modern Kyushu). actually more of a legend.
UU could be Sakimori. (or other names of any ancient japanese warrior corps raised to defende against Chinese invasion long time ago)
Sohei was associalted to the religious order and not secular state however.
and shown up quite late if Antiquity standpoint is taken. the other term could be Sakimori (might be archer).

 

[Lord Lakely]

Atakebune*

The samurai promotion thing works on a game design perspective but it gives a wrong historical impression. You can't officially become a samurai. The mobility into the samurai class during the wars comes from opportunism. You need to hide your upbringing, kill the people who can attest to it, fake your heritage and then do some more murder to empty a spot where you could slot yourself in as new-found aristocracy.
A great example is Hideyoshi, who everyone knew got where he was (the ruler of all Japan) by joining Nobunaga's ranks and making a name for himself... BUT when he stood at the top they told him "sorry, you're peasant-borne and the post of Shougun is exclusive to samurai". Since he couldn't murder half of Japan to hide his heritage, he set up his kid with a kid of the imperial line, thus his grandkids would become samurai as per definition (relatives of the imperial family through one of its three cadet branches that became the OG samurai clans).

Ironically, once Edo period rolled around, the class got expanded (once at the very start) with all people with military power. Which meant ALL ashigaru (a class of lifelong, non-hereditary soldiers) became official samurai. But neither of these scenarios maps onto the proposed game mechanic where you become a samurai during Sengoku and need to attain a level of prestige for it. Ultimately it would simply need a more careful naming and you could use it as-is. But a history game franchise, even if it goes for the lowest common denominator possible, should really strive not to worsen the horrid state of discourse on this topic on the Anglophone internet. And no, writing a few paragraphs on Civilopedia about how the game's just taking the easy way out does not cut it, it never has.

Fascinating read. Fair point, and I see no reason why we can't find some middle ground here;

Say for instance that Shogunate Japan's ability is that they get to recruit Ashigaru and Samurai versions of the land units every other player has access to. Ashigaru are weaker and cheaper, while Samurai are much stronger AND more expensive. Really expensive, like not just gold in maintenance, but CULTURE as well (sophisticated warriors will need a lot of fine art in order to remain sustained).

Combine with an Atakebune UU for some naval power and a unique commander who gives different aura effects to Ashigaru and Samurai units, you have a neatly designed militaristic Civ packed with flavour.

I'm also quite receptive towards the Shinobi/Ninja as a unique unit (Civilian or militaristic). They're a legit Japanese thing from the Shogunate era, and I'm sure there's an opportunity to design a version more ingrained with history that still lives to its pop culture reputation.

 

[Evie]

Yamatai is believed to be a dozen different places, and no one quite agree on which. Considering we can't even say where it was, that would be one good reason not to have it in the game.

Also, considering the whole point is splitting leaders from civilizations, insisting that the exact civilization of the leader should bei n the game anyway (so because we have Himiko, Ancient Japan should be Yamatai) is...weird.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah I'd drop the Samurai as a Unique Great Person if we could have a Shinobi UC instead. The Samurai would obviously become the military UU of course.
I wonder instead of calling it Edo Japan, I wonder if Shogunate Japan would work encompassing all the various shogunates?

As for Antiquity Japan, Heian seems the way to go but it can incorporate some elements from the earlier Naran period.
Antiquity Heian Japan can get a Torii UB and Honden UB to make a Jinja Unique Quarter, if the Meiji don't get it. But I think I'd personally give them something to do with Zaibatsu.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Yamatai is believed to be a dozen different places, and no one quite agree on which. Considering we can't even say where it was, that would be one good reason not to have it in the game.

Also, considering the whole point is splitting leaders from civilizations, insisting that the exact civilization of the leader should bei n the game anyway (so because we have Himiko, Ancient Japan should be Yamatai) is...weird.

One theory suggested that Yamatai was in Kyushuu.

 

[Evie]

One theory out of many. Which was my point. Far better to use a later Japan than a virtually unknown state whose exact location we don’t even know.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

One theory out of many. Which was my point. Far better to use a later Japan than a virtually unknown state whose exact location we don’t even know.

Then Age I 'Japan' can only be anything past Yamatai.
Yamato?
or just 'Yayoi' (弥生)

Yayoi period - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Fanatical]

The image you're talking about has nothing to do with Heian period. We have no evidence of naginata existence during Heian period proper and likewise, the image of souhei you're proposing is completely detached from the period. What existed during Heian period were warriors contracted by the monasteries. Regular warriors who do the bidding of the monastery in question wearing normal weapons and armor.
Consult The Teeth and Claws of Buddha by Mikael S. Adolphson, specifically chapter 5: "Constructed Traditions: Sōhei and Benkei" which deals with the whole image, what these guys were and were not and how did we end up with the image of the dudes in shawls you see in Shogun 2 or Japanese shows.

Naginata is first mentioned in Honchō Seiki (late Heian period). They can also wear only kimono with prayer beads without dō-maru or ō-yoroi armour if it is more historical, with the varying factor being the head (cowl or without cowl).

Toudaiji went through several development phases. Now, Civ 7 fairly blatantly attacks historical architecture to the poiint you could argue there's enough precedent to have the wonder be Tsukiji Hongwanji... but for the sake of people reading this getting something from reading our rambles, I must mention that Toudaiji photo is the modern one, built during Edo period. If you want to use it as a wonder for older periods, it is only appropriate to use the appropriate reconstruction of the building for that era.

Yes, an earlier version can be used, but Firaxis already takes design liberties when recreating wonders for aesthetic reasons or if there are scarce representations of a wonder. The Colossus you see in the game shouldn't hold a spear. From ancient texts and coins, we know that the statue was supposed to have a posture that tries to look in the distance with one hand touching the face. Similarly, the big temple that houses the Statue of Zeus is always shown with an opening, while the real temple probably didn't have an opening in order to protect the magnificent statue from the elements of nature.

On that same note, the Buddha of Kamakura you propose as a wonder later has the same problem. We keep it uncovered today (though there are initiatives to try and rebuild the temple around it) but historically it also had a massive hall to cover it up just like at Toudaiji.

The last building that covered the Buddha of Kamakura was washed away in the Muromachi period, so I see no problem here with presenting it uncovered.

Another constructed tradition, this time completely fictional. While the warrior monk imagery has some historical precedent, there is nothing of the sort for ninjas.

They are spies like those of any other civ. Without special clothes. Without James Bond gadgets. Without Hollywood Thriller-tier heists to give them any historical prominence.
You could make Japanese spies a unique unit if you really, really wanted to but you would have to drop all the black dress, shuriken, etc. nonsense. And at that point, it kind of loses all appeal as a unique.

I think we know a bit about Ninja weaponry and clothes, so a solid reconstruction won't be so out of place, Besides, such a special civilian unit with those uniques actions will work wonders, but I would love to see the Daimyo with his beautiful and elegant armour too.

As far as tenshu go, I'd suggest waiting until we see what Meiji brings to the table. There is evidence of a tenshu already being in the game and it could be tied to Meiji.
Especially in the context of Osaka castle, which is the posterchild of these modern efforts making concrete structures with metallic roofs as symbols of Japan's post-WW2 reconstruction for the locals (and great tourist traps), rather than the extravagant storehouses trying to ape Nobunaga's idea (of visibly projecting power through opulence) during Azuchi-Momoyama period.

I have another suggestion for a Unique Improvement. Sukiya (tea house) with bonsai trees and a koi pond. Each tea house will provide culture to celebrations. The cultural bonus is doubled if there is a Tea resource allocated to that city.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yamatai is believed to be a dozen different places, and no one quite agree on which. Considering we can't even say where it was, that would be one good reason not to have it in the game.

Also, considering the whole point is splitting leaders from civilizations, insisting that the exact civilization of the leader should bei n the game anyway (so because we have Himiko, Ancient Japan should be Yamatai) is...weird.

It's probably better to have no more than two Japans (one in Exploration, the other Meiji Japan), and two Koreas (Silla or Goryo in Antiquity, Joseon in Exploration) regardless. Modders can add a third from each if they wish.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

It's probably better to have no more than two Japans (one in Exploration, the other Meiji Japan), and two Koreas (Silla or Goryo in Antiquity, Joseon in Exploration) regardless. Modders can add a third from each if they wish.

If so where should Japan begins in Age I?