Japan - Hojo Tokimune Thread

[Cyberian]

Can someone explain to me how that choice makes Japan less of a military focused civ?
Reading the wiki page basically everything that guy did had a military focus. His accomplishments, his ruling style even the religious stuff he did was all samurai bushido connected..

 

[Morningcalm]

Hojo Tokimune has a religious angle as a Zen Buddhist and shrine constructor. He's also more defensive than the shogun leaders in the past, arguably.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Hojo Tokimune has a religious angle as a Zen Buddhist and shrine constructor. He's also more defensive than the shogun leaders in the past, arguably.

Right, Roosevelt has a combat bonus, a tourism bonus and the rough riders, Qin has extra Builder charges and wonder rushing. Hojo's UA will probably also have multiple components.
Maybe a movement penalty for enemy naval units within his borders and the first follower belief of the second largest religion in each city.

 

[redwings1340]

Can someone explain to me how that choice makes Japan less of a military focused civ?
Reading the wiki page basically everything that guy did had a military focus. His accomplishments, his ruling style even the religious stuff he did was all samurai bushido connected..

I think the idea is a more isolationist military though. This is a military that should reign down fire and make whoever thought it was a good idea to invade Japan forever regret their decision, but not one that's going to go out and win a domination victory.

So, ideally, it should be units that excel defensively, but are normal offensively.

 

[cakes]

i'm posting this from the reveal thread:

hojo tokimune is interesting. i'm a little disappointed this hasn't been discussed much.. the easy assumption to make is that the dojo will fit in somewhere, whether it's a leader ability or a UI. i wonder if it will give +unit exp and +faith. not sure what other UI possibilities there are and the leader ability may be defence-related (against numerically superior opponents? making the player focus on a small but highly-trained army) but not continental defence since that belongs to america

but i also have some more additions:

- america has a tourism bonus? is that instead of continental defence? (e: i see it's tourism for national parks and continental defence is a leader ability)
- zen gardens apparently didn't exist until later but rock gardens existed since the heian period... i would like to see the heian period represented in some way! maybe generating culture and faith

 

[King Jason]

- america has a tourism bonus? is that instead of continental defence? (e: i see it's tourism for national parks and continental defence for rough riders)

The continental defense is for everyone.

 

[bookman_]

Typhoon. Leader UU. May be purchased with 200 faith. Takes up four adjacent hexes, at least three of them must be sea hexes, within five tiles of your capital. Each turn, it will lose 10 health, but is otherwise indestructable. Can move one tile per turn. Deals 50 damage to any ship in its radius, pillages any improvements in its radius. May not be passed through, and units may only move one tile if inside it. Can only be purchased in the medieval era.

Most epic UU ever. Let's just hope that the IA know how to do naval invasions now, otherwise this could just be the most useless UU I know.

 

[Homusubi]

Repeat after me: TOCK-ee-MOON-ay. Alternatively, pronounce the name as if it were Spanish and it'll be nearly correct.

An interesting choice, but one that makes perfect sense when I think about it. Plus, thanks Firaxis for letting me off doing a separate Hojo when I restart Rising Sun for Civ VI.

...also, wait, does that mean that Japan's symbol will be the Hojo kamon, otherwise known as the Triforce?

 

[stealth_nsk]

...also, wait, does that mean that Japan's symbol will be the Hojo kamon, otherwise known as the Triforce?

We have suspicion Firaxis is going to release additional leaders DLC or at least considers it. In this case they'll try to avoid sticking civilization branding with leaders.

 

[redwings1340]

Most epic UU ever. Let's just hope that the IA know how to do naval invasions now, otherwise this could just be the most useless UU I know.

I can just imagine reaching Japan in the rennaissance era and see them with no navy and a coastline just wrecked with typhoons.

Not because Japan was invaded, but just because they started spamming as many UUs as possible and moved them in random patterns around their coasts.

While I feel like this UU won't be the direction Firaxis would actually go in (this seems like something Age of Empires would be more wiling to do than Civ), it would be a really interesting way to control naval spacing during conflicts, and the mere threat of them would keep naval invasions away from japan in this period.

 

[Jewman]

Here is what I think Japan will look like:
Unique Ability: Warrior Caste: Encampments and all buildings in encampments generate culture. Culture bonus for killing troops within borders.
Unique Unit: Samurai: Has ranged attack as well as melee attack. Higher cost and maintenance but vastly superior to contemporaries.
Unique Infrastructure: Heian Rice Paddy (improvement): Rice Paddies provide food bonuses to adjacent farms (Japan has to have a strong rice starting bias for this to work), farms around Heian rice paddies create more housing for city.
Leader Ability: Monk Caste, Faith districts generate culture, killing enemies in cities with faith districts generates culture and faith. 25% unit cost reduction if someone declares surprise war on you (does not stack over multiple war declarations) (Only Medieval and Renaissance (thats how these bonuses work, right?)).
Leader Agenda: Dislikes civilizations with larger armies, does not like to fight in coalitions.
Leader Unique: Monk Warriors, replaces pikemen or whatever the generic medieval melee unit is. Lower maintenance per temple in empire, gives "flanking" bonus to other adjancent monk warriors.

 

[bookman_]

...also, wait, does that mean that Japan's symbol will be the Hojo kamon, otherwise known as the Triforce?

This could be problematic for modders doing Hyrule mod.

Here is what I think Japan will look like:
Unique Ability: Warrior Caste: Encampments and all buildings in encampments generate culture. Culture bonus for killing troops within borders.
Unique Unit: Samurai: Has ranged attack as well as melee attack. Higher cost and maintenance but vastly superior to contemporaries.
Unique Infrastructure: Heian Rice Paddy (improvement): Rice Paddies provide food bonuses to adjacent farms (Japan has to have a strong rice starting bias for this to work), farms around Heian rice paddies create more housing for city.
Leader Ability: Monk Caste, Faith districts generate culture, killing enemies in cities with faith districts generates culture and faith. 25% unit cost reduction if someone declares surprise war on you (does not stack over multiple war declarations) (Only Medieval and Renaissance (thats how these bonuses work, right?)).
Leader Agenda: Dislikes civilizations with larger armies, does not like to fight in coalitions.
Leader Unique: Monk Warriors, replaces pikemen or whatever the generic medieval melee unit is. Lower maintenance per temple in empire, gives "flanking" bonus to other adjancent monk warriors.

UU : Why do you put a ranged attack for the Samourai ? It's the more close combat unit I know.
UI : Meh, rice is important in Japan only because they have rice in their territory, it's not a people who has a 'natural skill' with rice. I think an improved castle would to the job as UI.
LA : Actually about the same thing as the UA for the culture bonus.
LU : Actually pikemen were a big thing of Japanese armies, not a good idea to suppress them. I would put a special arquebuse unit instead.

 

[hugojackson18]

I think he looks awesome

 

[Sonmi]

UU : Why do you put a ranged attack for the Samourai ? It's the more close combat unit I know.

Samurai mostly fighting in melee-range is mostly romanticization.

The bow was the real weapon of the samurai in warfare until the introduction of firearms in Japan, though of course they were also adept at using several melee weapons.

 

[gaiko]

Kinda surprised they picked a Hojo. They were arguably a failure as a bakufu ('tent government'), their mismanagement of the after effects of the Great Kamikaze Luck-out led to the fall of Kamakura and arguably opened the doors to 350 years of growing civil war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_period#Civil_war

Not auspicious. Entrenchment of Buddhism would be main angle, but the great turning points of Japanese history often involved the overthrow of Buddhist political influence. Hence Kanmu sought to escape a Nara that had become one large temple complex, and launched the Heian era at Kyoto that was dominated by the Fujiwara. And one of Oda's big claims to fame was breaking the power of the warrior monks. And stopping the spread of Catholicism.

But I would have gone with Taira Kyomori - he, and the Genji-Heike monogatari, are endlessly popular in Japan.

 

[Jewman]

This could be problematic for modders doing Hyrule mod.



UU : Why do you put a ranged attack for the Samourai ? It's the more close combat unit I know.
UI : Meh, rice is important in Japan only because they have rice in their territory, it's not a people who has a 'natural skill' with rice. I think an improved castle would to the job as UI.
LA : Actually about the same thing as the UA for the culture bonus.
LU : Actually pikemen were a big thing of Japanese armies, not a good idea to suppress them. I would put a special arquebuse unit instead.

Bow was the main weapon of samurai.
It's not about the rice, its about the land administration which was central to the cycle of the forming of a highly centralized government and subsequent decentralization in Japanese history.
I'll agree that the LA is like the UA couldn't think of anything better that was religious flavored.
I won't disagree with you about the pikemen, but if we're talking about a leader's personality mixed with his era, monk warriors were actually more central to that time period than the later armies. Maybe monk warriors could be a support unit, instead?

 

[Morningcalm]

Kinda surprised they picked a Hojo. They were arguably a failure as a bakufu ('tent government'), their mismanagement of the after effects of the Great Kamikaze Luck-out led to the fall of Kamakura and arguably opened the doors to 350 years of growing civil war, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_period#Civil_war

Not auspicious. Entrenchment of Buddhism would be main angle, but the great turning points of Japanese history often involved the overthrow of Buddhist political influence. Hence Kanmu sought to escape a Nara that had become one large temple complex, and launched the Heian era at Kyoto that was dominated by the Fujiwara. And one of Oda's big claims to fame was breaking the power of the warrior monks. And stopping the spread of Catholicism.

But I would have gone with Taira Kyomori - he, and the Genji-Heike monogatari, are endlessly popular in Japan.

Yes, but under Tokimune the Hojo safeguarded Japan as a whole so there's that.

Why is Taira Kiyomori popular? Wasn't he a manipulative and evil old man (if admittedly skilled, but still--he might as well be Tywin Lannister in the popular imagination given his historical record).

Edit: Wikipedia, fount of all knowledge, noted that Kiyomori is often portrayed as a villain. He was even a villain in Fabled Lands: Lords of the Rising Sun, one of my favorite adventure game books.

 

[isau]

Kind of hoping we get a small break from the "traditional" Japan. I would love to see at least one ultra-modern thing for them for once, maybe a building or district. Modern Japan is a cultural powerhouse, one of the most recognized and exported cultures in the world, and it would be nice to see that reflected in their design, just like it is with the American film studio. Perhaps Japan should get a special kind of Factory that produces Tourism.

 

[Veras]

Kind of hoping we get a small break from the "traditional" Japan. I would love to see at least one ultra-modern thing for them for once, maybe a building or district. Modern Japan is a cultural powerhouse, one of the most recognized and exported cultures in the world, and it would be nice to see that reflected in their design, just like it is with the American film studio. Perhaps Japan should get a special kind of Factory that produces Tourism.

I can already picture Japan getting an Anime Studio or a Manga Distributor or a Videogame Company

 

[isau]

I can already picture Japan getting an Anime Studio or a Manga Distributor or a Videogame Company

That is part of their legacy, yes.

I was thinking more about branding. Sony, Canon, Nikon, Panasonic and Olympus, are all Japanese. Meaning they actually make the gear that American film studios use to make their movies and take their photos.

Maybe this is best reflected with a Science bonus, although I think Japan is a world leader in branding in general. Japanese brands are extremely well known throughout the world.