Japan Overhaul

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Bair and I were discussing the need to improve on Japan, which we both felt was in need for a proper update, which will be addressed by this thread.

A concept I came up with that I'd like to introduce here and would like to test out starting with Japan are Evolving UBs.

These would be UBs that gain additional benefits over time, as new techs are researched or as new Eras are reached.
I'd like for Japan to be the starting point of this concept with the Rice Exchange.
The rice exchange or rather associations of rice brokers began in Osaka, and developed a precursor to the modern clearinghouse concept.
Although initially focused on the distribution of rice, it grew to encompass other industries such as sugar or textiles.
Now, being an association of merchants, and the production and distribution of goods, I'd like to outline how I'd like for the Rice Exchange to evolve:
In Japan's history, artisans have had to work harder to get results out of poorer and scarcer materials.
The archipelago, in contrast to Rhye's resource placement, is actually very resource poor.
For instance, there are considerably fewer mineral deposits in Japan compared to its neighbors and the quality of the ores are considerably worse as well.
Japanese artisans have had to deal with these setbacks for centuries, leading to innovation in several fields.
For instance, while the folded steel technique was transplanted to Japan via China and Corea,
the Japanese improved upon the technique because the native ore was more difficult to work with.

Thus, the theme and function will revolve around getting the most out of the resources available,
evolving into an organized merchant association in charge of the distribution of quality goods,
to the modern merchant associations of cities of Japan.

So my plan for the Rice Exchange works like this:

Rice Exchange
Replaces Market
150 Hammers
Requires Currency
+25% gold
Resources provide an additional Civ-wide bonus applied locally to the city (i.e. Gold provides Happiness +2 instead of Happiness +1).
Can turn 2 citizens into merchant
+1 from Fur, Ivory, Silk, Whale
Available for free on Industrial and later starts

EVOLUTIONARY FEATURE: Unlocked upon researching Guilds.
- Spy attempts to steal Gold from this city autofail. Spy detection +10%.
EVOLUTIONARY FEATURE: Unlocked upon researching Corporation.
- Having an active trade deal for a resource reduces Unhappiness in the City by 1.

In addition, I have brainstormed a replacement for the Samurai,
which in my view, is more iconic as a social class rather than a warrior class;
it is their equipment that makes them iconic, not their organization as a fighting force.
Thus, I have prepared a replacement UU as well.

Sōhei
Replaces Heavy Swordsman
Melee Units
8 STR
1 MOV
70 Hammers
Requires Civil Service, Machinery, Iron
Upgrades into Rifleman, Grenadier

+50% vs. Melee Units
+25% STR if State Religion is active
Can build roads, generates culture in addition to Gold while pillaging

I have some ideas for a new UP and an overhauled UHV as well, but I will wait for some deliberation. Your input is appreciated.

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

Generic endorsement/support post.

Also noting that I will be scouring CNM and current civopedia articles regarding to Japan to consolidate romanization of Japanese names.

 

[soul-breathing]

My thought about Japanese UP is the Power of Meiji Restoration - After Japan gets Constitution, -5% beakers per civ for tech which is already get by European and America civs, the upper limit is -40%

 

[The Diocletian]

Neat idea, TD. I'm quite a fan of the Evolving UB idea as a means to implement events such as Japan's unprecedented industrialization or the Italian economic miracle, which as of now in DoC go mostly unrepresented.

Can't wait to hear what else you have to suggest.

 

[citis]

To be honest I don't like the evolutionary UB and UU. UB, UU and UP additional effectes should be as small as possible.

 

[The Diocletian]

To be honest I don't like the evolutionary UB and UU. UB, UU and UP additional effectes should be as small as possible.

Why do you think this?

 

[strijder20]

I like it.

I don't recall what the Japanese starting techs are, but Theology seems to be a better fit than Machinery here.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

To be honest I don't like the evolutionary UB and UU. UB, UU and UP additional effectes should be as small as possible.

citis, I never suggested Evolutionary UUs. But they do in fact evolve anyway via upgrades; some UUs get to keep their abilities via promotions already.
Evolutionary UPs was something I always had in mind; as I don't like expiring UPs.

 

[BenZL43]

Generic endorsement/support post.

Also noting that I will be scouring CNM and current civopedia articles regarding to Japan to consolidate romanization of Japanese names.

It will be great if you can solve the unknown problem that cause Tōkyō has to be written as Toukyou; Kyōto as Kyouto, etc. It will make the romaji looks more natural.


@TD: I'm not sure if Human ever steal golds from AI (since Human's gold production should be way more productive), or AI ever use the feature to stole golds from Human/other AI. The point is, I don't think that will be a useful feature. Moreover, since you mentioned that Rhye's Japan has too many resources, do you suggest we should reduce the amount of resources (and thus encouraging Japan to attack others for resources?)

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

@TD: I'm not sure if Human ever steal golds from AI (since Human's gold production should be way more productive), or AI ever use the feature to stole golds from Human/other AI. The point is, I don't think that will be a useful feature. Moreover, since you mentioned that Rhye's Japan has too many resources, do you suggest we should reduce the amount of resources (and thus encouraging Japan to attack others for resources?)

I steal Gold from the AI, typically when I have Espionage points to spare.
You can get away with a pretty sizable payload sometimes.
It's more for the AI than anything, and this is only for the first draft of the theoretical evolving UB feature.
But yes, I'm advocating that Japan should invade others for resources and be able to make better use of the resources they have.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay first off, I completely agree that Japan is in serious need of some buff and needs better representation of its historical development. This is urgent enough that I want to address this rather early instead of letting it bubble up from the bottom of balance related to dos, but as I am not sure about the solution right now I can't do it immediately.

Actually, before we start talking solutions, we should find out what the problems are exactly. My questions:
- is Japan fine until the Industrial era? Does it start to lag behind earlier?
- what do they lack most in the Industrial era? Research? Production? Is it a consequence of a lack of population?
- I'm actually not sure why Japan does so badly since it has comparable population and modifiers to European civs
- Nobunaga is not as stubborn as Tokugawa, but is the AI still part of the problem?
- does Japan need help to reach the main land, for instance Imjin War conquerors?

Your solutions are interesting and innovative, but imo too often rely on new concepts that would have to be implemented separately. I'd rather have a UU with abilities from existing XML tags.

Same with evolving UBs and UPs, while the concept is interesting, doing something like this properly goes way beyond the scope of balancing Japan, and I don't want to make them the special snowflake in this regard either. So I'd rather solve the problem with the tools we already have.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Okay first off, I completely agree that Japan is in serious need of some buff and needs better representation of its historical development. This is urgent enough that I want to address this rather early instead of letting it bubble up from the bottom of balance related to dos, but as I am not sure about the solution right now I can't do it immediately.

Actually, before we start talking solutions, we should find out what the problems are exactly. My questions:
- is Japan fine until the Industrial era? Does it start to lag behind earlier?
- what do they lack most in the Industrial era? Research? Production? Is it a consequence of a lack of population?
- I'm actually not sure why Japan does so badly since it has comparable population and modifiers to European civs
- Nobunaga is not as stubborn as Tokugawa, but is the AI still part of the problem?
- does Japan need help to reach the main land, for instance Imjin War conquerors?

Your solutions are interesting and innovative, but imo too often rely on new concepts that would have to be implemented separately. I'd rather have a UU with abilities from existing XML tags.

Same with evolving UBs and UPs, while the concept is interesting, doing something like this properly goes way beyond the scope of balancing Japan, and I don't want to make them the special snowflake in this regard either. So I'd rather solve the problem with the tools we already have.

It's actually easy as is to conquer the mainland with numerous CR2/3 Samurais. There's nothing really hard about it.
My problem with Japan mostly lies in their UB and the fact that they still have highly boring goals. Personally, I don't think the Tech tree one fits the bill as well, and it's a relic of a decade long past.
About Evolving UBs though, I just wanted to use Japan as a testing ground for the concept. I had hoped to expand the concept to other civs as well.
As for conquerors, here's the problem. We give conquerors to civs who need to occupy an area historically, but is hampered by AI to do so.
I wouldn't call the occupation of Corea during the Imjin War successful by any stretch. And thus, wouldn't warrant conquerors. The product would be anachronistic as well given the inertia rule. In fact, we'd be going back to vanilla RFC where that sight is far too common. I don't think Japan should reform all the time, but it needs to have a decent shot at it, and the modifiers already help with that.

One additional tidbit. I'd like there to be additional chances of China or Japan gaining Manchuria though.
At this point and time, Japanese Manchuria doesn't really occur (I don't want to go back to vanilla RFC's 100% though) and I'm thinking around the ballpark of 2 out of 10 games would be a good spot to aim for.
China honestly needs to have the spot more and I'd like to make the case for it so we can have a weaker AI Corea if that suits an AI Japan's purposes of a sometimes occupied Corea.
The problem is that Corea often Settler spams it now or inherits it after Mongol collapse and China rebirth.

My UHV drafts are mostly of an Economic nature. A modern Japan that didn't crash in the Lost Decade is something of a dream for the past 30 years.
And since some UHVs are about averting historical crises, I was thinking of doing something along those lines.

 

[Leoreth]

It's actually easy as is to conquer the mainland with numerous CR2/3 Samurais. There's nothing really hard about it.

That's true, I was mostly thinking about the AI here. For the player the problem is more that it is too easy.

My problem with Japan mostly lies in their UB and the fact that they still have highly boring goals. Personally, I don't think the Tech tree one fits the bill as well, and it's a relic of a decade long past.

I agree about the UB. I'm actually fond of the UHV, which is fun if it is played isolationist until the Industrial era. I think the problem is more that it is too easy and much more effective to just conquer China early on, as you said.

About Evolving UBs though, I just wanted to use Japan as a testing ground for the concept. I had hoped to expand the concept to other civs as well.

Okay, but that still feels like putting the cart before the horse to me. Balancing Japan has the higher priority right now, and I think we can do this with the tools at hand.

As for conquerors, here's the problem. We give conquerors to civs who need to occupy an area historically, but is hampered by AI to do so.
I wouldn't call the occupation of Corea during the Imjin War successful by any stretch. And thus, wouldn't warrant conquerors. The product would be anachronistic as well given the inertia rule. In fact, we'd be going back to vanilla RFC where that sight is far too common. I don't think Japan should reform all the time, but it needs to have a decent shot at it, and the modifiers already help with that.

One additional tidbit. I'd like there to be additional chances of China or Japan gaining Manchuria though.
At this point and time, Japanese Manchuria doesn't really occur (I don't want to go back to vanilla RFC's 100% though) and I'm thinking around the ballpark of 2 out of 10 games would be a good spot to aim for.
China honestly needs to have the spot more and I'd like to make the case for it so we can have a weaker AI Corea if that suits an AI Japan's purposes of a sometimes occupied Corea.
The problem is that Corea often Settler spams it now or inherits it after Mongol collapse and China rebirth.

I agree on both points. Actually right now Korea may be bugged in that it actually settles Manchuria.

My UHV drafts are mostly of an Economic nature. A modern Japan that didn't crash in the Lost Decade is something of a dream for the past 30 years.
And since some UHVs are about averting historical crises, I was thinking of doing something along those lines.

Sounds good, I always find it hard to come up with decent economic goals though, so I look forward to what you have in mind.

 

[Novicenoble]

I'd rather propose adding Jurchen about Manchuria problem. Manchuria was not occupied by Chinese unless they had regime of Nomadic peoples, Koreans also didn't got there after 11th century. Of course Japanese couldn't before 20th century.

But then, I don't think Chinese and Korean with only their mainlands each will not get enough productions and commerce. Better give east Asian civs some buffs.

 

[ezzlar]

Whats the difference between the successful island nation of England and the random fails of the Japanese? At base I would say AI handling of sea transports.

- England has a huge settler map with numerous unsettled good city spots. Japan has mostly occupied territory in their settler maps.
- England gets a huge conqueror event in India when building the Trading Company and appropriate techs. Japan doesnt get a conqueror event.

If the above would work better, AI Japan might have the right modifiers for a somewhat historic performance.

 

[Leoreth]

I'd rather propose adding Jurchen about Manchuria problem. Manchuria was not occupied by Chinese unless they had regime of Nomadic peoples, Koreans also didn't got there after 11th century. Of course Japanese couldn't before 20th century.

But then, I don't think Chinese and Korean with only their mainlands each will not get enough productions and commerce. Better give east Asian civs some buffs.

Good point, not against adding a Jurchen civ but imo there needs to be some solution until that can happen.

I don't think China fundamentally needs a buff. They've either been over- or underpowered throughout different versions of the mod (honestly I've lost track of how they're doing right now), but the potential to be powerful enough is there. Korea obviously lacks production, but that's not a problem imo.

Whats the difference between the successful island nation of England and the random fails of the Japanese? At base I would say AI handling of sea transports.

- England has a huge settler map with numerous unsettled good city spots. Japan has mostly occupied territory in their settler maps.
- England gets a huge conqueror event in India when building the Trading Company and appropriate techs. Japan doesnt get a conqueror event.

If the above would work better, AI Japan might have the right modifiers for a somewhat historic performance.

Comparing Japan to England isn't the best way to do it. England obviously expands during the early game which Japan doesn't (and shouldn't). Civs like the Vikings are a better comparison, and they're better tech wise than Japan despite similar modifiers.

 

[ales_]

Maybe because they have better opportunities for tech trading?

 

[Leoreth]

It will be great if you can solve the unknown problem that cause Tōkyō has to be written as Toukyou; Kyōto as Kyouto, etc. It will make the romaji looks more natural.

It's not an unknown problem, it's just that these characters are not supported by the character set in the game. Japanese characters are not the only symbols affected by it, many variants of Latin characters used by Polish are unavailable as well.

It's not even a problem in my opinion here, since ou is an accepted way to romanize long o, and actually closer to the Kana method of spelling it.

Maybe because they have better opportunities for tech trading?

I think this is exactly the problem.

 

[ezzlar]

But giving Japan better access to techs wont increase chances for foreign land invasions.

 

[Leoreth]

Successfully invading someone is a secondary concern right now. Japan needs to become competitive on its own before we can consider this problem.