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Japan Overhaul

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Tomorrow's Dawn, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. Novicenoble

    Novicenoble Prince

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    I think let there be some boost for tech exchanging probability between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. It's true that Japan was kinda stubborn about foreign contacts in history, but they kept contact and exchanging with China and Korea. Maybe you can give that kind of bonus to Portuguese too.
     
  2. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    The Shale Plant is actually a great UB already. The reason why Japan is lacking is due to being Agg / Pro.
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    But they aren't in RFC.
     
  4. Power_of_Beer

    Power_of_Beer Prince

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    I agree that lack of tech trading and open borders hurts Japan.

    Another thing is that in the RFC map Japan is mediocre. You can basically have 1 really good city (Edo), 1 mediocre city (around Hiroshima, which has 1 Rice and 1 Fish), and then 1-2 crappy cities which have no food at all. Compare that to UK + Ireland, which has ~2x as much food resources, but only had about half the population of Japan in history. Japan also lacks rivers (which is geographically correct) which means less commerce and no levees --> much less production.

    As a starting point my suggestion would be:
    - Give Japan 2-3 more Food resources (maybe 2 sea resources and 1 deer in the north)
    - Add 1-2 short rivers in accordance to Japans geography
    - Add 1 tea resource
    - Let Japan start with Calendar
     
  5. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Did you not read earlier that Japan is supposed to be resource poor?
    I do accept Rhye's current placement, because historically, Japan supported a large urban population within its urban centers and the only way to support that in the game is via the resources it has available now.
    Resources and conquest aren't the problems Japan has.
    For the human, it's interesting goals.
    For the AI, it's teching up.
     
  6. ales_

    ales_ Heir

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    Maybe Japan should receive some isolation bonus to help them and encouragrd the human player to play isolationally? Although I've no idea what bonus would that be.
     
  7. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Most UHV's aren't particularly interesting, anyway. At least, for me.
     
  8. Power_of_Beer

    Power_of_Beer Prince

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    I did read it, but from my understanding, this only relates to strategic resources. Its vibrant economic culture can well be represented by calendar resources.

    And the AI not teching up is of course directly related to Japans lack of food. It cant support much specialists like Britain and there is very little room for cottages. Add to that little to no trade with neighbours (which is fine because its historical) and no expansion, you get a backwards AI.
     
  9. ezzlar

    ezzlar Emperor

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    UP: The power of isolation?
     
  10. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I'd argue that AI Japan's problem with teching comes from the LHs and its unwillingness to trade tech with neighbors.
    Making Nobunaga more similar to Mansa might do the trick although without the tendency to peacevassal.
    But more than that, I was thinking of a UP that might do something along the lines of tech diffusion.
     
  11. citis

    citis Deity

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    Historically, Japan was a mediocre power in Middle and Renaiscance ages, and became a big one in Industrial. So associate UP, UB and UU with the industrial era and it will be OK, I suppose. Maybe some resources should spawn in 1500AD.
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I'm not too sure. First of all though, I would argue that England is a bad example and if anything is too resource rich. Also this characterization of Japan is a bit pessimistic, Edo and Kyouto usually make for a decent pair of cities. But I agree that Kyushu is too food poor and an overall higher population might help. Tea also would be very fitting, but it's not as if Japan is particularly lacking in happiness resources, they have Silver, Gold, Silk, Dye and later Whale.

    I would say that Japan suffers in particular because it doesn't have much space to develop cottages. Actually, now that I think about it, their recent further decline in average performance might have something to do with the Ocean changes: iirc there are some Ocean tiles that it works and losing one food on them is quite significant, especially with so few land tiles. If that is the case, map changes would be a good way to address that.

    I don't know if that would be historical though. Nobunaga isn't directly related to Sakoku, but he still represents the Edo period, so making him overly diplomatically active would not be fitting as well. And as someone else already said, Japan was lagging behind in tech until its modernization and industrialization (compared to European civs).

    A tech diffusion UP might be a better solution. How about this?

    The Power of Modernization: On reaching a new era, you receive all techs from this era already discovered by 2 (or any number) other civilizations.

    So it's basically a free one time Internet effect for every era. It could also be limited to the Industrial era onwards but I don't think it would do much harm to have it apply to all eras. The nice thing about this that it allows the AI to catch up, without being too powerful in the hands of the player because you cannot leverage it too get a tech lead.

    I also wouldn't be sad to see the current UP go, because it's rather stereotypical, not very historical and often overpowered and encourages the wrong play style for Japan.

    As for UU and UB: name and abilities aside, I think a medieval UU is okay for them. I don't think anybody's a fan of the Kaizen/Shale Plant though, so we should think about replacing this.

    With my observation from above in mind (lack of land for cottages and reliance on water tiles), maybe something harbor related that boosts commerce and maybe food for water tiles or water resources? That would be rather historical, as the Japanese economy has always relied a lot on fishing and coastal trade. Does anyone know an appropriate name for such a building? Anything iconic?
     
  13. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    I kinda like the Kaizen Plant.

    Furthermore, it does sync nicely with the other discussion that RL Japan isn't very resourceful. The Kaizen Plant represents how the Japanese dealt with it.
     
  14. Julius Americus

    Julius Americus Chieftain

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    I agree. Following that train of thought, it seems like maybe even the Japanese historical power should reflect that.

    One of the great and unique achievements of Japan among civilizations was how powerful economically they became in the late 19th century after centuries of isolation on a relatively resource-barren island, and then again in the late 20th century after the devastation of the Second World War. A power that starts at, say the beginning of the Meiji revolution which somehow enhances their ability to work with limited resources might be an interesting consideration. This might just also be a tech bonus, as others have said.
     
  15. Daffy

    Daffy Prince

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    The thing about the Kaizen plant that bothers me personally is the name itself..
    Kaizen is more a philosophy and that somehow doesn't fit to the word 'plant', and certainly not a coal power plant ;)
    I think Kaizen would much better decribe a tech or a civic, but that's not really worth implementing

    Suggestions for UB and so:

    Tsukiji fish market (world wonder possibly? certainly remarkable enough to not be a 'normal' building)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukiji_fish_market

    Zaibatsu (Bank?)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu

    Kabunakama (Kabunakama Headquarters or so? eg. replacing the market/grocer)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabunakama

    Dōjima Rice Exchange (or just Rice exchange? eg. replacing market/grocer)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dōjima_Rice_Exchange

    Za (not sure.. )
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Za_(guilds)

    Ie (not sure.. )
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ie_(trading_houses)
     
  16. Shadow Warlord

    Shadow Warlord Warlord

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    This is something i've noticed as well when playing Japan. I normally use slavery to whip Edo into shape, but you can't do that with the other two cities due to lack of food. Japan could really use at least one seafood source each in north and south so those cities can grow and make use of all their tiles/use specialists.

    I don't know about medieval/industrial times, but at least in recent times Sapporo is maybe slightly more populous than Kyoto:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapporo#/search
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Kyouto is clearly the most important city historically in Japan.
     
  18. Bair_the_Normal

    Bair_the_Normal 全は禪

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    Hokkaidō is a relatively recent phenomenon of import in Japanese history.
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yeah, so I've checked the map and Japan will definitely get some coast tiles back. Maybe a fish between Kyushu and Ryukyu. As far as tea is concerned I wouldn't know where to put it.
     
  20. Bair_the_Normal

    Bair_the_Normal 全は禪

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    Most famous tea in Japan is grown in Kyūshū or southern Chūbu regions [for the latter from Mie Prefecture up north to around Gifu Prefecture].
     

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