Japan worthless?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Zaimejs, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. Zaimejs

    Zaimejs Emperor

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    I did a random start, and I got Japan... thought I'd go with it. But really... they are completely worthless, right? UUs are useless... unique ability is pointless. I am getting my butt kicked in a war with Austria for god's sakes.

    Worthless Civ.
     
  2. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    Yes they are.

    However according to one of the Podcasts, the developers revealed they are both changing Japan and Germany, with Japan getting changes partly to do with cultural bonuses it was hinted at
     
  3. DemonMaster

    DemonMaster A.K.A. Fenhorn

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    Well, worthless is a strong word. Samurais do get Shock I and also Great General II, so you do will get more generals over time and Zeros are, well, they are better in fighting other fighters and that is good now when the AI finally do put planes on intercept. Their UU is not pointless, but it doesn't do a hell of lot anymore.

    Ok, its not the sexiest underpants in the store, but, but, call them a challenge to play :)
     
  4. Hpuk

    Hpuk Warlord

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    Samurai aren't that terrible, free promotions are pretty awesome and make getting to march and blitz so much easier. Still, not that great of a civ in my opinion as well.
     
  5. Chiatroll

    Chiatroll Warlord

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    Japan is being looked at.

    Optimism is all I have.

    Personally I hope whatever change they make doesn't change them from being combat orientated. Maybe a they could replace the zero with something cool.
     
  6. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    When Japan gets changed they need some kinda bonus to their economy that helps them build up their armies, and probably a buff to their units. ATM, all 3 of their uniques are focused exclusively on military.

    An solution to this might be to give them some extra production from somewhere with a unique. A change in their UA to accommodate the role of Zaibatsu in Japan would be cool, maybe having something to do with generation of Great engineers and or merchants? I like the idea of giving them a cultural element too though, that will be nice. They just feel so "plain" at the moment.

    As for Germany, the only change they really need is a slight modification to their UA. Their UU's are pretty good and appropriate as is. What could be interesting is keeping the current UA as is, but the unit they have a chance of gaining being a random era appropriate UU of another civ. Alternatively, they could also give a small chance of converting enemy civs units maybe?
     
  7. Chiatroll

    Chiatroll Warlord

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    Personally whatever the buff is my only worry is that I hope it doesn't take them away from being a neat offensively focused empire.
     
  8. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    It seems likely to me, that Japan ought to get some culture/religion bonus. It's weird this wasn't the case in the first place... I mean is there a country in this world who had more shrines and temples during all of their existence than Japan (still has today)? Maybe the huge variety made it hard for the devs to decide on something specific ;)

    I'm thinking of a Temple replacement: +2 Faith, +1 specialist slot for Great Writer Generation.
    Then again that would give tourism which isn't really fitting. I do like the Dojo idea though someone else posted.
    Zero might get cut imho; nobody's gonna shed tears if that really happens I'd guess.

    The Bushido UA stuff was pretty good in Vanilla, but with the 100 hp system since G&Ks it lost it's "oomph". I could definitely see them maybe moving this to the Samurai instead and give them something else for an UA. Like +1 food from sea resources and double happiness from Whales? :D
     
  9. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    I hope so too, it is a really neat little military civ as is with Oda leading and it would be a shame to change all that just because its become a little dated.

    It would be interesting to see how culture could be implemented into a military civ without becoming too similar to the Aztecs. Maybe adding culture to military buildings in the barracks line? Maybe +?xp for units for each social policy completed. There's all sorts now i think about it :goodjob:
     
  10. krozman

    krozman Chieftain

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    I play Emperor/Immortal on random start random leader random maps. When Japan is selected for me, I just consider it one more factor into hardmode. There are so many factors that determine whether THAT GAME will be good or bad. The only leader I restart immediately b/c of their abilities is China, b/c who wants to play 8 hours knowing you're going to win?
     
  11. El Caballerion

    El Caballerion King

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    I love Japan in general, but definitely not in CIV 5. I am not a warmonger, so I think ANY change to their UA would be beneficial.

    I think that one change should hint at Japan's isolation during the reign of some of the later Shoguns. Perhaps something as simple as all cities produce +1 gold, +1 culture, +1 production if that city is not trading with another civ?
     
  12. Zaimejs

    Zaimejs Emperor

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    Why not have a UB like a baracks that increases the rate of military production at war time. That would be pretty cool and like either Japan or Germany. I don't think anyone has a bonus like that.

    Germany needs more culture... great musicians should be a specialty.

    Japan... I do like the idea of some religious bonus. Maybe a unique bonus that give an advantage to multiple religions in the civ?

    But yeah... right now... meh. Samurai's don't help to much when Austria is hitting me with canons and muskets. And those flying whatever monkeys.
     
  13. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Could you please link the podcast? I'm very curious.
     
  14. leadtothehead

    leadtothehead Chieftain

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    I think as some have already suggested a bonus in reducing pressure from other ideologies seems like a no brainer to replace the Bushido UA, that with maybe some change to the Zero UU to make it more effective would be ideal IMO.
     
  15. godman85

    godman85 Warlord

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    Japan needs a major cost reduction to military. It is in their lore. People didn't fight for money. They fought for honor. Lives were dedicated entirely to the daimyos. This should be reflected with 25% unit upkeep. So they spend 75% less to upkeep their armies.
     
  16. Xichael

    Xichael Warlord

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    Bushido isn't only a military philosophy, much like Chivalry it applied to social situations as well. Perhaps keep the combat bonus in the UA but give them some sort of culture/production buff as well.

    Drop the Zero, give them a damn UB. There is a current Japanese mod that changes the Zero to a UB called the Dojo which replaces the Barracks, provides more XP to land units and gives 2 culture. I thought that was kind of neat. What Japan really needs though is a workshop unique, since Japan was still a nation of artificers when Westerners were already working with replaceable parts. Perhaps give it a bonus to Great Engineer points?

    No, kill the Zero with fire. It's an insult to Japanese history and nobody uses fighters anyways.
     
  17. Socratatus

    Socratatus Emperor

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    Why are zeros an insult to japanese history? whatever the rights and wrongs, as far as combat was concerned they were running rings around American early WW2 planes and even British aircraft of the time. Japan should never be worthless. They should always be a force not to treat lightly.
     
  18. Notadolfhitler

    Notadolfhitler Chieftain

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    Japan being worthless? Definitely doesn't remind me of civ4 at all.

    Tokugawa was the strongest civ....ever.
     
  19. leadtothehead

    leadtothehead Chieftain

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    They already have two civilizations with reduced unit maintenance costs in Germany and Zulu, so while it might fit history wise game diversity wise it doesn't, plus paying only 25% for unit maintenance is pretty extreme isn't it?.
     
  20. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Sure. Any number of Asian countries that wound up fusing Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam. I don't think faith defines Japan any more than any other nation. Which is to say, it defines it greatly, since just about every civilization has been profoundly impacted by religion.

    And we've got enough faith civ's, really. The focus on warfare is certainly appropriate for Japan. I haven't played it recently, but the UA was originally considered to be extremely powerful, so they must have nerfed it or something.

    The samurai itself is fine, it's the mayfly-like lifespan that longswordsmen have before musketmen appear that's the problem. They need to rework the tech tree so that there's more of a gap.
     

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