Japan

[Gothic_Empire]

I'm considering doing that for the UA anyways to avoid the glut of un-usable musicians.

Is the UA gonna change before I can try Japan?

 

[Txurce]

-50% from UA and -50% from different ideologies results in 0 tourism per turn with Japan. Add travel ban on top of this and it will be unreal to get any modifiers with them, resulting to only and final solution of wiping them out.
It's different with fighting a runaway culture civ because it's a yield race, not a complete negation of them.

Yeah, a Japan that doesn't share your ideology, is militarily powerful, and pulled off a travel ban in the WC will be tough to beat... as they should be.

My guess is that it's not too tough to either stay friendly enough, or alterantely cut them down to size enough, to win a CV. Instead of speculating, why not just include Japan as an opponent in your next several CV games, and see what happens?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm considering doing that for the UA anyways to avoid the glut of un-usable musicians. Also considering adding a music slot to the Dojo (Dojos, like any good gym, obviously blare music non-stop, right?).



Keep in mind that's a modifier that is pooled with all other modifiers. So if Japan snowballs, or is bored, or shares a religion, etc., the -50% will be partially canceled out. Its more like Japan has the Tourism Ban WC resolution by default with all civs.

G

GG/GA spawning a random GWAM would be okay, but could this one be free to compensate for getting less? (1.5 of a GP now, will be just 1 then) It'd also make Guilds as Japan more valuable than they currently are, which is not much.

 

[matlajs]

i think japan vassal shouldnt have that privilage refuse trade with their master....

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Digging the current japan. I don't like the idea of nerfing them already, but also, I don't have a better suggestion for "fixing" the floating great musicians.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm going to make some light tweaks to Japan to make the GG/GA part of the UA a little less 'bursty,' but otherwise I like the TR element.

G

 

[ExpiredReign]

I have to say: I really like the new Japanese UA. I didn't mind playing as Japan before but now I can't stop. Declare war early if you can just to suppress your neighbours until you grow into a juggernaut and then BAM!, smack'em with your Samurai. That is unless you roll a map like I just did with no iron anywhere on the continent, it was all on the other landmass! Makes it very hard to get across and take with no late-game units worth anything with no iron. That's not Japan's fault though.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Japan is amazing now, they're much more fun than previously. Dojo burst is awesome at late levels, I think I got 1000 on Epic of S/C/F for leveling my unkillable lvl 14/15 Sincerity Samurai (Sincerai?) who's got Stalwart, 2x Cover, 3x Drill Blitz (double attack) 3x Shock March 2x Medic and something else I forgot. He is a beast.

My "tier list" of Dojo abilities:

As Samurai/Knight/actually-fighting-guys:

1. Sincerity (+50% XP) (especially on Samurai, Quick Study made me get an actual Level 15 Samurai just as I arrived in Renaissance. Sure, it falls off ultra-late at which point this Samurai has nothing meaningful over the worst promos of other units, but he will be truly dominating before.

The rest is level 7-11, on average, though some of those naughty 'Rais are fresh out of the city. ALHAMBRA city. Wonderwhore Authority-Aesthetics Haile with 20+ cities on another continent forgot to get this particular one, which pleases me a lot) It's also the rarest promotion from what I've seen, so when you get a Sincerity guy, you better try and keep him alive.

2. Benevolence (+5 heal, and heals surrounding units when gets healed - get March on that Samurai and he will fear almost nothing)
3. +20% Wounded attack (if mounted only, due to superior mobility to make use of it), +15% outside of friendly lands (all, knight included)
4. Everything else, except
5. +X (15%?) against guns/melee
6. +15% attack in friendly lands

As trash-you-keep-as-garrison

1.Whatever, but +15% friendly lands, +15% attack, +20% wounded
2. Whatever really

 

[Gangrin]

I still think that Japan needs some love. I thought about it for a while, what could be done with it without too much work and would still be good. Apart from returning bushido to previous iteration (i.e. all types of units and from turn 1) with tandem with new GWAM spam - which i am sure will never come to be - i considered changing Dojo from Armory replacement to Barracks replacement. This way you can still gain your powerful promos, farm yields and at the same time you have at least something going for you in your early wars. It still leaves Japan as military-only civ and woefully bland with their fleet, but at least it something

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I still think that Japan needs some love. I thought about it for a while, what could be done with it without too much work and would still be good. Apart from returning bushido to previous iteration (i.e. all types of units and from turn 1) with tandem with new GWAM spam - which i am sure will never come to be - i considered changing Dojo from Armory replacement to Barracks replacement. This way you can still gain your powerful promos, farm yields and at the same time you have at least something going for you in your early wars. It still leaves Japan as military-only civ and woefully bland with their fleet, but at least it something

I think the UA is the weakest part of Japan by far, but I am unsure if it's a problem.

I mean Dojo is pretty solid (+1C+1S, solid promotion, a decent bunch of yields per level up), the Samurai is also good, but the UA is really weakened by not being affected by Faith/Wonder policy GG/GA.

That issue (Faith/Wonder granting no Daimyo Patronage) will be fixed next patch from what Gazebo has written on Github when I reported it, though I've conquered about 50 cities and 8 civs (9 in practice, cuz Rome got conquered by Ethiopia) my last game and got about 5xGWAM out of it despite Imperialism +33% GG/GA generation policy. While theoretically impressive, I think it's not really as good if you consider that working guilds as a regular civ would've given me about 2-1 of each. If the GWAM are made completely free, it'd be pretty cool, as at least this way the Guilds won't be useless.

 

[matlajs]

im playing japan now. i was rly bored till medieval, when i raised my dojos. im rly enjoying fights with them and samurai seem to me undisputedly strongest unit in era. cant wait dojo having music slot. about their UA and guilds matter. Thats a main case why i asked once having surplus of GP points carried over,after GP born. At least in case of Japan, it would make it effective as intended i suppose. But i think avoid build any of guilds in capital should be enough,regardless that will make it culture weakest city in empire.

 

[dunkleosteus]

Civ 6 has the idea that Japan is all about cultured war. I don't agree that the current build for Japan represents this well enough. Sure, there are 43 civs to work with and Japan is just one of them, but I think we should do each civ justice. I think we should at least add a little something or other cultural in the earlier game, or another bonus for the duration.

I'm aware that Japan is the only civ with tourism defense, but making them annoying to beat with culture doesn't make them good. Hit Japan early and you can wipe them out before they get a chance.

For a little early war-type culture, perhaps +1 culture for every 5 exp any units get?

About Japan, I've heard that the country is "80% buddhist, 80% shinto and 80% agnostic". Having visited the country, I'd agree with this. Japan seems to take no offence or issue with combining and mixing religions as they see fit. Maybe this results in no religious unrest? Would make sense to me. If I recall correctly, weddings are shinto and funerals are buddhist as well, so thats multiple religions for each person.

 

[Epaminondas II]

Came back after a month break and found the change to Japan. I could not be more disappointed. Japan had one of the most unique and engaging playstyles with their old UA. It allowed you to approach the opening techs in a completely different way from most civs while being powerful but not broken. Being able to follow up a unique opening strategy with excellent tools for warmongering throughout the game made this easily my favorite civ to play. The new ability could not be less interesting (for me personally but overall I think it is rather weak) and makes Japan just another poser warmonger similar to Napoleon (i.e. decent benefits for being successful but no real tools to make that happen). If this ability is going to stay in it would be awesome if it could be on an alternate leader. Their old UA was flavorful and unique while also being strong enough to enable a different opening strategy even on deity please bring it back into the core game.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Came back after a month break and found the change to Japan. I could not be more disappointed. Japan had one of the most unique and engaging playstyles with their old UA. It allowed you to approach the opening techs in a completely different way from most civs while being powerful but not broken. Being able to follow up a unique opening strategy with excellent tools for warmongering throughout the game made this easily my favorite civ to play. The new ability could not be less interesting (for me personally but overall I think it is rather weak) and makes Japan just another poser warmonger similar to Napoleon (i.e. decent benefits for being successful but no real tools to make that happen). If this ability is going to stay in it would be awesome if it could be on an alternate leader. Their old UA was flavorful and unique while also being strong enough to enable a different opening strategy even on deity please bring it back into the core game.

No real tools to make that happen? I disagree. Dojo Virtue units are just better than regular ones. Sure, Japan gets nothing to help it before medieval (you can bully an AI to get a GG tho) and nothing when playing peaceful aside from +1C+1S from Dojo which is nothing at this point as well as any potential gains you've gotten from previous battles, like GWAM. Also, once you get enough Dojos so your true fighting units get up to 3 Virtue promos (I think 4 is possible too, but RNGsus didn't bless me enough), if the promos were the right ones then you get almost Zulu-tier troops, while also receiving good/great Faith/Science/Culture from level ups and lots of Great People. Though don't count on getting more than 1 unit with 3 promos before 20-40 Dojos. At that point you've won the game pretty much, unless you're playing on Huge (there it's a regular city number, not like on Large, where it's either a full continent or half of it).

Japan isn't very reliant on resources now which is cool. Even if you have little Iron, that's not too bad - just make Knights once you can't make more Samurai, as Dojo Knights are just great. If you get Sincerity on one, that guy is going to be a beast in no time. I'd argue that Dojo'd Knights can be better than Dojo'd Samurai in many occasions (especially considering Samurai will be turning into crappy Tercio soon), but it's best to use both with Samurai and their upgrades being the primary used units to maximise GG generation and get lots of XP.

What I like about current Japan is the synergy. The UB wants your units to level up and gives random promos that help you grants your units strength and longevity. UA wants you to generate GG/GA, which means fighting, which fits the UB. The UB gives lots of Faith, which can get you GG/GA by Industrial. Thanks to Science from Levels, you reach Industrial faster, and thanks to Culture you do not fall behind in Culture while doing so. UU not only gains XP faster, but also gets you quicker GGs, which synergises with everything else in the civ.

Before... Was there any synergy? UB wanted to settle by Iron/Horses (RNG needed so they're spread - I mean, those resources are going to be there 99% of the time, but it's better to get 8 horses on 4 tiles than 8 on 1) and helped fighting only a bit as an unit couldn't get multiple virtues and they were about half as strong, the UU wanted you to fight, UA helped at fighting and needed RNG to exist while giving you no tools to use the RNG. The synergy was only slight, with most being reliant on RNG. Now it's much better that Polynesia got Fish part of the UA as it at least can always embark and find a spot with Fishes (if they care enough, because mooi can be worked just fine without that +2Food). I also don't really find relying on RNG to make your game either too easy or hell to play unique nor engaging, but to each his own.

Also I don't think the UA is weak. It definitely was not my last game. I've generated 8 Great Generals just cutting through Gandhi, Pocatello and sort-of Gajah Madah and Catherine, as their Diligence + Synagogue religion just makes them spam lots and lots of units (they never stop coming, for every one I kill, two more take his place 4 turns later - only after my units got super-strong could I break through that insanity), and there's 5 other players on another continent. I've only eliminated Gandhi, but the remaining guys on my continent are on their last legs so I guess they'll be 1-2 GG/GA more tops.

Sure, my last (also Large, Epic) game no one had Synagogues + Diligence so I've got 8 GG after my entire game and slaying 9 opponents pretty much and like 2-3 GAs, but it was still respectable.

Anyway, all that'd mean I got 4x of all GWAM free, except I also spawned a Great Admiral and got one for free from Imperialism, so it's 5. 15 GWAM. Nice. And I've got lots and lots of Faith generation from Piety, cities, Dojo - once Industrial era comes, I will be able to Faith buy GG/GA to become a super-cultural powerhouse. The only part I am not a fan of is -50% Tourism as it doesn't help me at all, but the rest of the UA is strong, though it does require to fight.

 

[Zares]

Wait, what? UA weak? I finally won a Deity game by cultural victory. It's very strong.

 

[matlajs]

it makes sense. more experienced units deserve more virtues, but imho then it should get reworked(slightly nerfed) or restrict it for some maximum of them for each unit. i suppose thats not intended have there second zulus.

 

[tu_79]

it makes sense. more experienced units deserve more virtues, but imho then it should get reworked(slightly nerfed) or restrict it for some maximum of them for each unit. i suppose thats not intended have there second zulus.

Why not? They are so reliant on fights that strong units are needed for the civ to work. Zulu is stronger out of the batch, while Japan has to make an extra effort to get there (don't let its units die, for example) and then has something extra to reward that effort (GWAM, dojo bonus).

 

[Legen]

After starting next to a Piety India that was forcing its religion on all its neighbors, I was glad that they couldn't send trade routes to my cities. The TR part of the UA has its use to protect Japan's own religion.

May I ask you to consider extending/revisiting the UA to restrict foreign religious pressure? I find it fitting for the Sakoku/isolation theme, and it opens a religion-defense niche among the civs. Some players might also find it more appropriate/acceptable than the tourism defense.

For more practical purposes, I see it being valuable for beliefs that are based on the number of followers, like God-king and Inspiration, as well as a safeguard against religious unrest.

 

[Strigvir]

That would be too many civs with religion pressure defense.

 

[JungleBucks]

After starting next to a Piety India that was forcing its religion on all its neighbors, I was glad that they couldn't send trade routes to my cities. The TR part of the UA has its use to protect Japan's own religion.

May I ask you to consider extending/revisiting the UA to restrict foreign religious pressure? I find it fitting for the Sakoku/isolation theme, and it opens a religion-defense niche among the civs. Some players might also find it more appropriate/acceptable than the tourism defense.

For more practical purposes, I see it being valuable for beliefs that are based on the number of followers, like God-king and Inspiration, as well as a safeguard against religious unrest.

What this guy said.