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Japanese units always fight at full strength?!??

In the live stream, I noticed when Greg attacked with a wounded warrior, his strength was listed as the same as it was when it was not wounded. Here's the screenshot:

civ5battle.jpg


This leads me to believe that unlike Civ 4, unit strength is not reduced when wounded.

My theory is that the Japanese power simply means that the unit fights as if it has full hit points, although at the end of combat any damage it it takes will still be subtracted from the actual hit points it had remaning.

Your half right.

Strength doesn't decrease with damage, but Damage does. When calculating damage that will be dealt to an enemy, your strength and health are considered and so is the enemy strength. With japanese units your health is always at maximum for the purpose of these calculations, therefore a unit with 1 hp will deal the same amount of damage as a unit with 10 hp, this ability is unqiue to japan.
 
Hmm... I read that the average weight of a simple byrnie (chain mail) with short arms is about 15 kilograms. Then, how can a knight wearing full plate armor not be slow?
because they were custom designed for each person and manufacturing involved 5+ artisans who dedicated their life and had centuries of experience to draw on, plus the weight was distributed very finely over the entire body with buckles and harnesses
Because while armour did weigh some, it also granted very efficient protection.

However armour distributes the weight over the body, and a trained man-at-arms (who would be in good shape) wouldn't be extremely hindered. Especially considering the fact that plate armour itself was impervious to swords (IE a sword stab to an area not covered with plate would wound, but a stab or cut hitting the plate itself wouldn't cause as much as a scratch).
What he said!
 
In the live stream, I noticed when Greg attacked with a wounded warrior, his strength was listed as the same as it was when it was not wounded. Here's the screenshot:

civ5battle.jpg


This leads me to believe that unlike Civ 4, unit strength is not reduced when wounded.

My theory is that the Japanese power simply means that the unit fights as if it has full hit points, although at the end of combat any damage it it takes will still be subtracted from the actual hit points it had remaning.
No it looks like it doesnt have full strength. If you look at the unmodified strength of the warrior, it is 6, but his modified strength is 5.52. That this 5.52 is still approaching 6, is due to a terrainmodifier. I think the lowered strength, is because he is wounded.

I am not sure, because has also some kind of negative modifier, which i cant identify/read. Perhaps meaning wounded?
 
thats regarding the percentile bonuses below that, you'll notice that the spearman has 9.31 instead of 7.

Basically it shows you what your strength is after modification of bonuses such as terrain and promotions.
 
Apparently the calculation is approximately

Damage unit A takes from unit B
=(Unit B Strength*Unit B hitpoints/Unit A Strength)* factor

(with all modifiers apllied to the strength.. hit points not being a modifier)

where the factor is about 1/2


As for the barbarian, he has 2 modifiers
-33% Open Terrain
+25% Fortification
= -8% total

-8% of 6 is -0.48
for a total of 5.52

Hit points don't affect strength at all
 
Your formula right there shows that unit strength is affected by hit points. Unit strength*hit points/unit strength means that the actual combat strength is less for a damaged unit (except Japan). It doesn't penalize you twice for the damage, but it still penalizes you.
 
Your formula right there shows that unit strength is affected by hit points. Unit strength*hit points/unit strength means that the actual combat strength is less for a damaged unit (except Japan). It doesn't penalize you twice for the damage, but it still penalizes you.

The combat Effectiveness of the unit is affected by hit points (except for Japan)

The Strength is totally and completely Unaffected by hit points.
 
OK, I think we're actually in agreement, just disagreeing on the terms. The point people are making is that damage to the unit affects damage inflicted (it could be like Civ3, where both units have the same combat chances per hit regardless of the amount of HP, but it's not). Japan's bonus is to not have combat penalties to the amount of damage inflicted because the unit is damaged.
 
Your half right.

Strength doesn't decrease with damage, but Damage does. When calculating damage that will be dealt to an enemy, your strength and health are considered and so is the enemy strength. With japanese units your health is always at maximum for the purpose of these calculations, therefore a unit with 1 hp will deal the same amount of damage as a unit with 10 hp, this ability is unqiue to japan.
So could the Japanese have a battle where both units die?
 
So could the Japanese have a battle where both units die?

Yep.... I think Kamikaze is one of their achievements (kill a unit with a 1 hp unit)
 
Ok, here's all the data I've gathered from that particular combat

First Battle:

Spearman:
Modified Strength: 9.31
Hitpoints: 10

Brute:
Modfied Strength: 7.02
Hitpoints:10

Listed Expected Result: Spearman inflicts 7 points of damage, brute inflicts 5


Second Battle:

Spearman:
Modified Strength: 9.31
Hitpoints: 5

Brute:
Modified Strength: 5.52*
Hitpoints: 2

Listed Expected Results: Spearman inflicts 6 points of damage, Brute inflicts 2

Now we need to figure out what would make those numbers work. Krikittone, the formula you posted doesn't quite match this data, especially for the second battle.

*It appears that the reason why the Brute's modified strength is less for the second battle is because the fortification bonus dropped from 50% to 25% which suggests that attacking a fortified unit reduces the fortification's effectiveness.
 
Well ways the formula probably has to be modified.

1. Str/Str ratio... probably not 'straight'
since the first combat shows that the ratio is not the same... so possibly a more weighted one that tends toward 1
(3*Str1+Str2)/(3*Str2+Str1)
or something like that

2. hp effect, probably not 'straight' again... possibly hp+X

(which is annoying, since that unnecesarily complicates combat... if you don't want that big an effect from str differences, then don't have large str differences in the game.)
 
The closest thing I can come up with is:

Expected Damage done by unit A = Strenght A / (Strength A + Strength B) * (Hitpoints A + 3)

It comes pretty close for the above battles.

It means that the average damage for 2 full life equal strength units would be 6.5 which sounds about right.

It also means that a full health unit will do 3.25 times more damage then one with only 1 life left.
 
The closest thing I can come up with is:

Expected Damage done by unit A = (Strenght A / Strength A + Strength B) * (Hitpoints A + 3)

It comes pretty close for the above battles.

It means that the average damage for 2 full life equal strength units would be 6.5 which sounds about right.

You mean?
Expected Damage done by unit A = Strength A / (Strength A + Strength B) * (Hitpoints A + 3)

That would probably work...a unit couldn't do more than ~13 hp worth of damage and if the variation is +-2....getting an expected damge of 12=surekill... would be fairly hard (you would have to be 12 times stronger than your opponent)
 
You mean?
Expected Damage done by unit A = Strength A / (Strength A + Strength B) * (Hitpoints A + 3)

That would probably work...a unit couldn't do more than ~13 hp worth of damage and if the variation is +-2....getting an expected damge of 12=surekill... would be fairly hard (you would have to be 12 times stronger than your opponent)

Yes, I had the bracket in the wrong spot. Thanks for the correction, I'll edit my previous post.

It also means that a unit has to be approximately 3.4 times as strong to have a 50% shot at killing a full health opponent in a single combat.
 
who dedicated their life and had centuries of experience to draw on
Medieval armorers were vampires!

So could the Japanese have a battle where both units die?
Any faction could do this (assuming damage is done simultaneously rather than sequentially). Japan is just more likely.

Apparently the calculation is approximately
Damage unit A takes from unit B
=(Unit B Strength*Unit B hitpoints/Unit A Strength)* factor
(with all modifiers apllied to the strength.. hit points not being a modifier)
where the factor is about 1/2
Source? This seems like guesswork.
This would imply:
a) Full strength units kill each other in two attacks (on average)
b) Half health units deal half damage.

which suggests that attacking a fortified unit reduces the fortification's effectiveness.
I like that idea a lot. I hope you are correct.
 
So could the Japanese have a battle where both units die?

Well ti would depend on if any faction could do it, battles where both participants have horribly low hp may indeed result in the death of both units, or they may have coded it so that one units survives no matter what, we just don't know.

@ariman half health units certainly don't deal half damage
First Battle:

Spearman:
Modified Strength: 9.31
Hitpoints: 10

Brute:
Modfied Strength: 7.02
Hitpoints:10

Listed Expected Result: Spearman inflicts 7 points of damage, brute inflicts 5


Second Battle:

Spearman:
Modified Strength: 9.31
Hitpoints: 5

Brute:
Modified Strength: 5.52*
Hitpoints: 2

Listed Expected Results: Spearman inflicts 6 points of damage, Brute inflicts 2

Spearman goes from 10 health to 5, and 7 damage inflicted to 6.

If it was half damage then it would have inflicted 3.5 damage in the second round.
 
Spearman goes from 10 health to 5, and 7 damage inflicted to 6.

If it was half damage then it would have inflicted 3.5 damage in the second round.
Wasn't the spearman Japanese? Or have I misunderstood something (couldn't watch the stream)?
 
@ariman half health units certainly don't deal half damage
Which is my point.

It was an implication from the assumed model; if data doesn't match this, then it means the model is wrong.
 
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