Japan's Kit

[pineappledan]

Or we could move the Fight Better Damaged ability to the UA, since that is the original Vanilla ability and is not new code. Then you can put the yields on XP from combat onto a Tatara UB, same as it works for the Dojo now.

 

[azum4roll]

For instance, the Torii with the Holy Site scaling would end at an extra +7 tech scaling compared to a GW + Camp with a +1 adjacency bonus. The Torii you had proposed would end with a +0 tech scaling relative to that same GW + Camp.

I'm not aware of any camp getting culture boosts from tech, nor any normal improvement that gets +9 yields before adjacency at end game.

 

[azum4roll]

Or we could move the Fight Better Damaged ability to the UA, since that is the original Vanilla ability and is not new code.

It is new code. Vanilla only has Fight Well Damaged.

 

[Legen]

To clarify, do you have the "FightWellDamaged" parameter in mind? The vanilla parameter only negates the combat penalty from being damaged, with no combat bonus, and is a weaker version of the Dojo's "StrongerDamaged" effect. If you want the Dojo's effect in the UA, either we add new DLL code for a new Traits parameter, or we have the UA giving a promotion with it, just like the "yields on XP combat" idea.

Also, I once suggested giving the virtues part of the Dojo to the Samurai during last congress, and there was complaint that it stepped on the Kris Swordman, which I agree with. That's why I don't want to move it to the Samurai directly.

 

[Legen]

I'm not aware of any camp getting culture boosts from tech, nor any normal improvement that gets +9 yields before adjacency at end game.

Some improvements do when accounting for buildings, which counts towards their scaling just like I'm counting reformation NWs on my Torii example.

• Camp (+9)
  • Guilds: 1
    
  • Gunpowder: 1
  • Rifling: 1
  • Refrigeration: 2
  • Smokehouse: 1
  • University/Workshop: 1 or 1
  • Zoo: 11
• Farm (+9)
  • Civil Service: 1
  • Fertilizer: 1
  • Robotics: 3
  • Agribusiness: 22
• Pasture (+11)
  • Civil Service: 2
  • Fertilizer: 2
  • Robotics: 3
  • Agribusiness: 22

 

[azum4roll]

Robotics is so late it shouldn't count.
University/Workshop/Zoo only boosts trees, not camps.
Plus those yields are way worse than culture/faith/tourism.

 

[pineappledan]

It is new code. Vanilla only has Fight Well Damaged.

Ah, I meant Fight well damaged for UA. I misspoke.

 

[Legen]

Robotics is so late it shouldn't count.
University/Workshop/Zoo only boosts trees, not camps.
Plus those yields are way worse than culture/faith/tourism.

Robotics is still part of their end game scaling.
Trees are where camps are often built, and they don't remove the trees.
The yield types are worse, but that doesn't prevent Academies and Holy Sites from providing notably more than regular improvements in absolute numbers. I don't see why a non-military UGPTI should be held on a lesser standard than a regular GPTI.

Adding a new building with new GW slots for 1 civ will break the great works management screen. At minimum such a new set of building classes would require new UI work, and the end result would probably be that players will always see the Japan UBs in that screen regardless of what civ they are playing as.

Reviewing this, a new unique building with more GW slots is visible only to the civ in question. We don't see the Celtic's Ceilidh Hall (extra Music slot), nor the Venetian Murano Glassworks (extra 2 Art slots), in the GW management screen when playing other civs, regardless of whether those two civs are in the game or not.

Besides, the game can already handle Venice's case, which is the basis for the Tatara's GW concept. So, in the first Tatara example (with Yorishiro buildings containing new GW slots), the game should behave just like it does for Venice with Murano Glassworks (in other words, perfectly fine).

Spoiler Murano Glassworks with the Celts in the game, quick IGE demonstration :

 

[azum4roll]

I don't see why a non-military UGPTI should be held on a lesser standard than a regular GPTI.

You need to consider what you're comparing.

A unique Academy would be replacing a regular Academy, so it should scale like a regular Academy plus bonus from being a unique.
A unique (regular) improvement would be replacing another (regular) improvement that would be worked otherwise, so it should scale like a regular improvement plus bonus from being a unique.

A Torii would be replacing a great work and another (regular) improvement that would be worked otherwise, so it should scale like a great work plus (regular improvement plus bonus from being a unique).
The bracketed part is unique improvement scaling, which is usually a couple of rare yields sprinkled throughout the tech tree.

 

[Legen]

You need to consider what you're comparing.

A unique Academy would be replacing a regular Academy, so it should scale like a regular Academy plus bonus from being a unique.
A unique (regular) improvement would be replacing another (regular) improvement that would be worked otherwise, so it should scale like a regular improvement plus bonus from being a unique.

A Torii would be replacing a great work and another (regular) improvement that would be worked otherwise, so it should scale like a great work plus (regular improvement plus bonus from being a unique).
The bracketed part is unique improvement scaling, which is usually a couple of rare yields sprinkled throughout the tech tree.

The Torii is not an improvement that can be spammed by workers, it is available only as far as you can generate GPs. And because GPTIs (unique or not) can't be placed as frequent and early as non-GP improvements, they have to provide notably more yields.

For instance, lets compare the Torii with the Kuna. If the Maya can create 6 Kuna in the time Japan can create 1 Torii, and the Kuna generally gives +2 yields over a regular improvement, then the Torii needs to be worth an extra +12 yields (after discounting the GW part, since the Maya can also generate theirs) to achieve early parity. Similarly, if the Maya have 12 Kuna by the time they get a +2 yield from tech scaling, and Japan only has 3 Torii by the time they get their own tech scaling, then that tech will need a +8 yield scaling on its [regular improvement plus bonus from being a unique] part just to be on par. Even the Holy Site scaling doesn't do that.

Japan may eventually end with more Torii than the Maya has trees for Kuna in later eras, but that's still a lot of early yields as an opportunity cost for being an UGPTI, and that's for the Holy Site scaling. I don't see how a weaker Kuna-like scaling on the Torii would make for a viable UGPTI.

 

[hokath]

Gosh quite the brain teaser

A unique Academy would be replacing a regular Academy, so it should scale like a regular Academy plus bonus from being a unique.

So the bonus for being unique is attached to the Academy. This is because we imagine the base Academy to be

bonus to compete with GS bulb + regular improvement

such that a unique Academy is

(bonus to compete with GS bulb + bonus for being unique) + regular improvement

In which case instead of

great work + (regular improvement + bonus from being a unique)

we should think of

(great work + bonus for being unique) + regular improvement

So the strength of the scaling bonus for being unique is attached to the balance of great works, not the balance of tile improvements. The latter will just be too few yields.Which I think is what Legen is saying.

 

[pineappledan]

Reviewing this, a new unique building with more GW slots is visible only to the civ in question. We don't see the Celtic's Ceilidh Hall (extra Music slot), nor the Venetian Murano Glassworks (extra 2 Art slots), in the GW management screen when playing other civs, regardless of whether those two civs are in the game or not.

Besides, the game can already handle Venice's case, which is the basis for the Tatara's GW concept. So, in the first Tatara example (with Yorishiro buildings containing new GW slots), the game should behave just like it does for Venice with Murano Glassworks (in other words, perfectly fine).

As you say it might be fine, but I am wrestling with almost exactly what you had proposed re: a choice of 3 shrines on construction with my Sumer custom civ and their Ziggurat UB. The UI is fritzing and replacing the base temple for all civs with the ziggurat, even if Sumer isn't in the game. I don't think the Venice buildings support your argument because they are national wonders, and these shrines would be buildings available in multiple cities. regular buildings have entire columns while wonders appear on the first column only and are handled differently by the UI.

Regardless, it's a wait and see, and it might take more wrestling with the UI. But it sounds like we're switching onto the Torii anyways.

Another idea I had for the UU2 for Japan was the Matsushima class, instead of either the Mikasa or Satsuma.

Matsushima-class cruiser - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pros:

• Very historically significant - The Matsushima class won the decisive naval engagement in the first so sino-japanese war. I would argue it was a more important battle against a far more worthy adversary than the Russo-Japanese war
• Domestically produced - 1 of the 3 was at least built in Japan, which was pretty historically important in its own right. The Mikasa was purchased from the British
• Earlier - it’s a cruiser from 1895, and earlier components are strictly healthier than a modern mikasa dreadnought or an atomic Yamato battleship
• it was weird - The Matsushima had a frankly ridiculous armament. It was a relatively small cruiser (roughly 2/3rds the size of the base cruiser model), and carried the equivalent of a battleship's main gun in a fore barbette. It was specifically designed to punch above its weight, and had all sorts weird tactical complications because of its daring design. This lends it well to making a unique ability for a video game
• Long-lasting - it had an exceptionally long service life of 30 years. The Mikasa was 10 years younger and retired at the same time; the Yamato class were all lost in less than 7

Cons:
- We don't have a model for the Matsushima. the closest we have is a model for the Spanish Pelayo pre-dreadnought, which used the same 320mm Canet gun, but was a much larger ship overall.

 

[Legen]

As you say it might be fine, but I am wrestling with almost exactly what you had proposed re: a choice of 3 shrines on construction with my Sumer custom civ and their Ziggurat UB. The UI is fritzing and replacing the base temple for all civs with the ziggurat, even if Sumer isn't in the game. I don't think the Venice buildings support your argument because they are national wonders, and these shrines would be buildings available in multiple cities. regular buildings have entire columns while wonders appear on the first column only and are handled differently by the UI.

If it's from your experience, then I'll take your word for it. Maybe we could make those extra 3 shrines into National Wonders to avoid the UI issue.

Another idea I had for the UU2 for Japan was the Matsushima class, instead of either the Mikasa or Satsuma.

I can't say this ship inspires much, the Mikasa and the Yamato are far more iconic. Isn't it possible to justify moving the Yamato one tech earlier? The ship was built and commissioned before any nation had started their respective nuclear programs, which justify placing it in Atomic Theory or Refrigeration.

Maybe we could look on the destroyers instead, like the Fubuki class? It was a revolutionary design that gave origin to the modern destroyer: it had the firepower of many light cruisers of other nations, could reload torpedoes during battle (destroyers of other navies could do so only in port), and some were even refitted to deploy the famous Long Lance torpedo. Moreover, a melee UU ship would work better with the UA and the Dojo's combat XP yields. A naval UU that unlocks at Radio may be decent enough, given how Radio is a big tech for Cultural Victory.

 

[azum4roll]

Gosh quite the brain teaser

So the bonus for being unique is attached to the Academy. This is because we imagine the base Academy to be

bonus to compete with GS bulb + regular improvement

such that a unique Academy is

(bonus to compete with GS bulb + bonus for being unique) + regular improvement

In which case instead of

great work + (regular improvement + bonus from being a unique)

we should think of

(great work + bonus for being unique) + regular improvement

So the strength of the scaling bonus for being unique is attached to the balance of great works, not the balance of tile improvements. The latter will just be too few yields.Which I think is what Legen is saying.

Note that we were talking about tech scaling, not base yields.

There's not much difference between the scaling of unique regular improvements and regular improvements, except the former usually gets the rarer yields.

My proposed scaling is that of great works + that of unique regular improvements.
Legen's proposed scaling is that of great works + that of Holy Sites.

My rationale is that it should be based on what the "unique" component replaces, i.e. a great work + a citizen that's otherwise working the worst tile (usually a resourceless farm/mine). I already gave it better scaling than that (see above unique regular improvement vs regular improvement comparison).

 

[Legen]

(great work + bonus for being unique) + regular improvement

As azum4roll said, our debate isn't really on the GW part, but on whether the regular improvement part should be upgraded to an UI, (e.g. Kuna or Moai), or to a GPTI (e.g. Holy Site) scaling. My view is that it should be a GPTI scaling due to the Torii being limited by GP generation, rather than by Worker allocation.

There's also argument on whether azum4roll's UI scaling is actually better than that of a regular improvement scaling. It is at a +6 from tech scaling after excluding the GW scaling and base yields, and at a +10 if counting the Torii's base yields (211, which excludes the GW's base 32 from the Torii's base 5 1 3 ).

For instance, Lumbermill gains +4 from techs (+1 from Metallurgy and +1 from Combustion) and another indirect +3 from buildings that buff trees (University/Workshop and Zoo), where Lumbermills are necessarily placed on. Azum4roll's scaling is at a -1 here, and that's before Lumbermill's adjacency bonus. It only competes if we count the Torii's +4 base yields and assume the Lumbermill won't have a good adjacency bonus.

The Mayan Kuna gains +10 from techs and benefits indirectly from buildings that buffs forest/jungle tiles (University/Workshop and Zoo) for another +3. Azum4roll's Torii tech scaling is half of the Kuna's and doesn't even out even with the Torii's base yields. It is closer to the Brazilwood Camp, which gains +6 from techs and has comparable base yields (22 with the luxury's base yield and monopoly); however, the Brazilwood Camp also adds a luxury for trade, which is worth some extra gold and happiness, and benefits from forest/jungle buildings (another +3).

 

[hokath]

My view is that it should be a GPTI scaling due to the Torii being limited by GP generation, rather than by Worker allocation.

That's what I was getting at.

But actually even your higher rate of scaling is probably insufficient because there are other buffs to Great Works. For example yields from Beliefs (Pantheon and Reformation, is it?), various Policies (including ones that add +% bonus to yields which are particularly strong), in fact there is even the (in my experience rare) World Congress proposal. Then there are the rewards from theming bonuses (for whom the culture/tourism bonus part also benefits from Artistry, and possibly other sources in the future) that you forego with the Torii. Although, the part that scales GWAM bulb is included so at least there is that -- perhaps this is a handle that can be used to balance further.

 

[Legen]

But actually even your higher rate of scaling is probably insufficient because there are other buffs to Great Works. For example yields from Beliefs (Pantheon and Reformation, is it?), various Policies (including ones that add +% bonus to yields which are particularly strong), in fact there is even the (in my experience rare) World Congress proposal. Then there are the rewards from theming bonuses (for whom the culture/tourism bonus part also benefits from Artistry, and possibly other sources in the future) that you forego with the Torii. Although, the part that scales GWAM bulb is included so at least there is that -- perhaps this is a handle that can be used to balance further.

You're probably right in this, the Torii's scaling isn't simple and has some traps along the way. Though I'm discussing about Torii's scaling, I still think that it would be better to look for an alternative solution, like the one about moving GW slots from Temple/Castle to Monument/Shrine, plus add a Writing slot to Council. That would solve Japan's issue of generating GWAM before unlocking buildings with GW slots, and wouldn't require as much work (no new DLL code needed, no changes to art assets).

My concern, though, is that a Torii proposal would still get more votes than something simpler even if the Torii is way worse than just creating a regular great work, which is what I was warning about during the 4UC integration congress. This Torii discussion is just to help a potential Torii proposal to at least have a viable component, instead of adding a noob trap for anyone playing Japan (and for the AI).

Personally, I'm leaning towards the GW slots on Monument/Shrine/Council, plus an Ironworks Tatara. But I'm not sure what the latter would provide, aside the early Iron, that would be interesting enough to compete with a Torii proposal. I think people would just prefer an UGPTI, even if it is unviable and just a pure yield stick.

 

[azum4roll]

For example yields from Beliefs (Pantheon and Reformation, is it?), various Policies (including ones that add +% bonus to yields which are particularly strong), in fact there is even the (in my experience rare) World Congress proposal. Then there are the rewards from theming bonuses (for whom the culture/tourism bonus part also benefits from Artistry, and possibly other sources in the future) that you forego with the Torii. Although, the part that scales GWAM bulb is included so at least there is that -- perhaps this is a handle that can be used to balance further.

Pantheon: +1 on Goddess of Beauty (not counting Ogma)
Follower: +1 on Church
Reformation: +2 on Inspired Works (but that gives +2 +2 to GPTI)
Cultural Exchange: +1/3
Heritage: +50% theming bonus (already counted)
Empiricism: +3% local per great work
Creative Expression: +2 (kinda balanced by the tenets that buffs UIs/GPTIs)
Socialist Realism: +4 (kinda balanced by the tenets that buffs UIs/GPTIs)
Futurism: +2 (kinda balanced by the tenets that buffs UIs/GPTIs)
Cultural Heritage Sites: +1 (balanced by Historical Landmarks +1 on GPTI)
Various world wonders that boost great works

Tradition finisher: +1 +1 on GPTI

 

[HeroOfTheSword]

Spoiler “My suggestion for a Japan rework” :

The more I think about the introduction of the Tatara building, the less I like it since the whole point of it was a way to sort out the GWAM issue and early iron scarcity. Without those elements it seems as if we're just adding the building for the sake of it. Worse again we're just dissecting the Dojo because none of us want the Dojo's bonuses to go. I'm also leaning away from slapping on early iron to the civ now altogether since it technically hasn't anything to do with the Japanese ingenuity of gaining iron without actual iron. I'd much rather a production bonus like you have instead.

Here's my idea for the civ though:

UA: Amatsu Tatara
50% GWAM's from GGeneral/Admiral birth
All defensive and military buildings gain +1 and +1

UI - Kami
Unique GPTI built by Great writers/artists/musicians on hills or tiles connected by fresh water but not adjacent to each other
Each Kami grants a % towards a great engineer in the city
Yields +2 +2 +2 +1

UB - Dojo
Unchanged

UU - Samurai
Unchanged

UU - Yamato
Unchanged or changed to another unit

Rationale:
I'm not a big fan of the Torii personally so I've a counter suggestion with the Kami, which are similar shrines built throughout Japan in worship of the Tatara process. The positioning restrictions are based upon the historical locations of Tatara workshops that extracted iron-sand from river beds and hills. I've no idea what % to give towards great engineers but I think it should give something towards that since they are shrines in worship of the ingenuity of their smiths. The yields also could be reworked since I've not got the knowledge of how things scale.

Overall, the one thing that has always just bothered me was the faith and culture bonus from defensive buildings so my counter to that would be drop the culture and add faith and possibly science to military buildings instead. I'd also get rid of the Shogunate title in favour of Amatsu Tatara which encompasses the nation's military, spiritual and medicinal history dating back two millennia. In game this solves the annoying pigeon hole of nearly always having to go with Defender of the Faith pantheon and opens us up to God of war as well - if going authority.

I've done a fair bit of research on all of this, although I'm no expert!

References:

https://en.kokusaibujinrenmei.org/Blogs/martial-strategies-concepts/amatsu-great-ancient-wisdom-japan

What is a Tatara? - The History and Development of Tatara Ironmaking - 鉄の道文化圏

What is TATARA Ironworks?

What is TATARA Ironworks? Tatara ironworks is a traditional method for smelting iron composites via simultaneous combustion of iron-sand and charcoal. This method remains the only method that can produce Tamahagane, a special type of steel used for sword crafting, even to this day.Tatara...

unnan-tatara.jp

Tatara History - The History and Development of Tatara Ironmaking - 鉄の道文化圏

Kanayago: God(dess) of Tatara

Have you ever heard of Tatara? If you’re like me, the first thing that pops into your head is one of the 28 Chinese mansion constellations (婁), but if you’re more interested in iron wor…

saninstory.wordpress.com

Kanayago Kami

Shrines and Temples of Japan. Japanische Schreine und Tempel. Kanayako, Kanayago Shimane

japanshrinestemples.blogspot.com

Japan Heritage Official Site | Stories and travel information | JNTO

Japan Heritage ties together historical sites, shrines, temples, traditional arts, castles, armor, and other cultural assets. Find photos, videos, tourist information, and more.

www.japan.travel

 

[hokath]

So more swords?


But seriously, I think your Kami sounds undercooked. It's a Holy Site, right? What art will you use, still the Torii gate?
Assuming the yields were competitive, you're taking the General/Admiral -> GWAM and extending to GWAM -> Engineer. It's quite one-track, no?
Isn't the idea better accomplished by Legen's UNW

Spoiler :

Tatara (replaces Ironworks, takes the Kabuki slot as Japan's 2nd UB)
Unlocked at Iron Working (from Machinery)
Production cost scales with number of Cities
5 Iron (from 2)
10 Production, +5 Culture and 5 Faith
1 Engineer slot
+2 Culture and +2 Faith to Manufactories in the Empire.
When a Great Engineer is born in the Empire, gain Science equal to 100% of your Culture and Faith per turn as an instant yield. (global version of the Kabuki's Musician ability, the yields and GP choices can be easily changed with database values, but the global nature requires DLL changes)
25 Science whenever a building is constructed in this city, scaling with Era. (baseline Ironworks ability, no changes)

With whatever changes based on UA and Dojo like
Melee/Gun, Mounted Melee and Armor units in the Empire gain Eight Virtues of Bushido.