jar01: spain, emporer

Just having a look at the terrain the enemy have built their cities on:
Babs
Akkad - Hills + Incense
Eridu - Hills

Mongols
Darhan - Hills
Kazan - Horses

Abu
Basra - Hills
 
We're now eligible for the Pentagon, should the next leader be used for that?

Neither the Babs nor the Mongols sent much in the way of units at us, just the few they were able to build each turn. Progress was slow in my turns, but I think CKS should be able to move faster.
 
Dont see the Pentagon as much use at this point. While we dont even have ships for current armies and no point in wasting an army for 1 extra unit, when we could just make another army for another continent or use 2 armies on 1 city etc.
 
@jarred! I agree with you that the Pentagon would be a real benefit. There's plenty of battles to come here on MAB, but I don't see us needing to go to another continent @Nathiri once we have taken control of and ICSd MAB. I get what you are saying, and it's always good to have more armies, but IMHO that extra unit in each army can make a huge difference between keeping or losing an army, especially with Riflemen possibly not too far away from Hammy. It's really easy to lose many consecutive rounds attacking a fortified rifleman /riflemen / riflewomen / riflefolk in a city on a hill.
 
I've got the save. I won't be able to really look at it until tomorrow evening, though.

It sounds like things are going well. It's nice to have a map of the world, and even nicer that the Babylonians don't have saltpeter.

I think I'd rather have the pentagon than a third MAB army, but it isn't a strong preference. I don't think that we'll face rifles, and muskets aren't looking too likely either, but an extra 4 hp keeps those knights safer. Notice that our armies dropped to 4 hp and to 5 hp during jarred!'s turnset. They are pretty vulnerable to attack then.
 
So I made slow but steady progress. We are getting hit pretty hard by war weariness, and we can't raise the lux slider any more. Some might be from the Mongols, who are down to 4 cities. Either pushing hard here or making peace might be worth it. Babylon power is steadily decreasing, and we are moving gradually along, but they are still attacking us.

Cash is an issue right now. I'm in favor of trading luxes to the Dutch for cash, but I did not make any trades with them.

We have galleys aplenty now. We should decide soon if we want to save the city of Babylon for last - if so, we could start shipping empty galleys around so they'll be available when we are ready to attack their island holdings.

I left a few galleys near plains island to help evacuate if the Vikings attack, but I dismantled the ship chain. (The Vikings haven't been acting aggressive.)

Turn 0:
MM, rushing in towns where we can't grow past 6. Move a few units, hit a galley with a cat.

IBT: Lose MI, longbow, knight to Babs. Babs start Magellan's.

Turn 1:
E knight kills B longbow. Knight kills redlined knight.
Advance on Sippar.
Move galleys and units toward BAM island.
Raise lux tax.

IBT:
Knight retreats, knight loses to Babs.

Turn 2:
MM
At Sippar:
Cats & trebs go 3/6, showing e pike, 2 regs. Knight retreats (losing 1 hp to treb then 2 taking off 1 hp from reg pike – E pike is top defender. MI is dinged by longbow, but kills the pike. Sword dies to pike, it promotes - 2nd longbow visible. 2 knights and knight army arrive.
At Khurasan:
Cats and trebs go 2/3, showing 2 pikes. Vet knight dies without scratching pike, 2nd knight kills pike, E knight kills 2/3 pike, E MI kills 2/5 knight, takes city – barracks, 1 citizen, 1 treb. Kill longbow in the area.
Move lots of units, game crashes, but I've saved it after taking Khurasan, so no big deal.
Near Almarikh:
E knights kill 2 longbows, vet knight kills longbow and promotes.
Advance on Hovd, Mecca. Army kills longbow near Mecca.

IBT:
Arabs advance on Sippar, draw out a longbow. Bab knight redlines killing a knight near Mecca.

Turn 3:
At Sippar: Cats&trebs go 3/6. Knight army kills 2 pikes and a spear. Knight kills longbow, takes city with barracks, a treb, and 5 workers. Knight kills longbow outside city. Workers road.
At Mecca:
1 hit, 1 miss with cat&treb. Army kills 2 pikes, knight kills longbow.
Near Fustat: Knight kills 1/5 knight.
At Hovd: treb misses, knight retreats, knight kills 4/4 pike and promotes, E Knight kills pike, takes city.

IBT:
Bab knight dies near Almarik. Dutch complete Magellan's.

Turn 4:
At Mecca: 1 hit, 1 miss with cat&treb. Army kills a pike and longbow, Knight kills a knight. City is taken. Knights kill 2 longbows in vicinity.
Advance on Ta-tu, Kufah.

IBT: Babs kill 3 knights.

Turn 5:
Kill knight, longbow near Mecca. Treb got left alone by a misclick, but it may be okay.
At Kufah: trebs go 3/7, showing 3 pikes and a knight. Lose 3 knights, take city.
Lose 1 knight taking Ta-tu – 1 treb, 3 workers.

Some units are fortified in Hovd.
 

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Gottit, will have a look now, post thoughts/plan later/tomorrow. Watch this space...

*** Screencard: "Some time later..." ***

Sooo... Oh wow, now I can totally see why we need to go down to 5 turn-sets! Good work everyone! :thumbsup:

Regarding trade, I think we should! And I'm not sure why we haven't already? We can send Luxes to the Dutch for around 40 GPT, which will keep Willy friendly, and help a little with our current cash-drain.

Ending the wars and reducing LUX% would be even better for our cash-flow, but I'd rather not do that just yet. Given that I don't remember seeing many reports of Mongol attacks during the last couple of sets, I'm guessing most of the WW is coming from Babylon...? But although making peace with the Babs is certainly a possibility, the idea of leaving them to their own devices for another 20 turns makes me nervous. And though it would be great if I could finish off the Mongols on my set, given the massive Cultural influence we have to trek through, I don't think that will be possible either...

Other than Nimrud, I can't see any towns which will be immediately attackable during my set. I figure I'll send healthy (green) Knights south from Mecca on the first turn of my set: I should be able to scrape enough of them together. Unfortunately that still won't open up Damascus to a 1-turn attack from our side of the border, but should let me reach the Incense-Hill, from which I can then hit Damascus 2 turns after Nimrud falls.

An available Combat-Settler (or 3!) would have really helped here:
Spoiler How Settlers might have helped... :

Combat Settler spots Damascus.png

Actually, looking at the current map, I think we could really do with having multiple Combat-Settlers being shipped over to BAM, to get us within easier striking distance of the remaining Mongol and Bab towns (and also shield our more valuable captures from Cultural impingement and incoming hostiles). So I'll get onto that...

After Nimrud and Damascus, our next targets will presumably be Karakorum, Uruk and Medina. There's one Settler already heading towards Nuevo Pompeii, and another will complete in Veii next turn. So if no-one has any objections, I'll ship them both over, for the next player to do this:

Spoiler Attacking Karakorum and Uruk :
Combat Settlers Kara + Uruk.png
We'll want ICS-towns on those spots at some point anyway (the Karakorum-FOB is defended by the river, and still leaves 2 more spots to the SW, the Uruk-FOB is on a Hill), so it might as well be now...

That doesn't help on the southern front though. The units that conquered southwards down the east coast of BAM can head back up north, but their journey (and any Settlers which follow them) will be slowed by the current breaks in the road. Once Nimrud and Damascus fall, to close the roads/ even up the border north of Mecca, we could plant 1-2 Settlers like this:

Spoiler Closing our border and ICS-ing near Mecca :
Combat Settler spots + ICS Mecca.png
...but I think those will have to come from Egypt. Although there's one Settler in southern BAM already (2N of Choybalsan, under a Musket), it's on an unroaded Jungle tile, so I'm inclined to settle it in place: this will immediately connect that broken road (that enormous pile of Workers in the adjacent tile still need another 2T to finish theirs...)

On the subject of Workers...

@CKS there are multiple Galleys + Workers(Egyptian) near Isin. Where were you thinking of sending them? To improve Rome, or for shipping to Mongolia?

Spoiler Some niggles that irritated my inner retentive... :
I spotted several Workers doing jobs that are both useless and time-consuming (e.g. re-Foresting Tundra-tiles that have already been chopped, slashing/irrigating future ICS-spots, roading/mining Mountains we're never going to work, etc.). We still have more important stuff to do (like Foresting unchopped Tundra-tiles, and finishing our war-road north from Choybalsan!), so I'm very much inclined to interrupt and re-assign any Workers I find doing anything similar, if they won't finish during the next 2 turns.

Some of our current 'ICS'-town placements are kind of non-optimal as well, because placed as they are, they're blocking multiple additional potential ICS-spots, e.g.
-- Alicante 2 (between Kua, Der and Pisae) could/should have gone on the Gold-Hill (allowing 3 ICS-spots instead of 1)
-- Alcorcon 2 (between Neapolis and Nuevo Pompeii) is placed CxxAlc2xxC (blocking 3 ICS-sites), when CxcxcxC was possible
-- New Murcia 2 (SE of Sumer) could/should have gone on the adjacent Hill or the mined Grass (allowing 2 ICS-spots instead of 1)
If it's OK with everyone, I would like to switch those three (and any other non-optimal town-placements that I find, which haven't already got Culture in them) to Settler-builds, for eventual disbanding...
 
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I say definitely fix all worker tasks and ICSing issues you see.

Military:
What does the gang think of using the troops around Almarikh and Kufah (not sure if this is the correct city name) and recent landings to take care the 4 Bab towns between there and Mecca, so we can amass the troops in The South for an attack into the Bab core (up the Eastern MAB coastline)? This would certainly mean a slower demise to the Mongols, though. More on this later.

Economy:
It looks like the round of rushing coupled with some WW has ruined our economy.
One option is to take Babylon as soon as we can. This would hook up our dyes, and probably Incense by then, open us up for trade for silks and ivory, and maybe wines later. With the new happiness we should be able to re-whip any temples we need to (and our military is making good progress so we can stand to lose a few turns of military production).
 
I was sending those workers to Rome, but it doesn't really matter to me. They were in southwest Egypt, and shipping is faster than walking.

Yes, the settler in the jungle is to connect the road in southern BAM. Most of those workers were captured in the vicinity and went to road before I realized I could get a settler there. We do need settlers for BAM (and everywhere, really). They rush nicely with pop4 and 10 shields in the bin, and there are a few towns almost ready, and some walking through Sumeria - I should have sent them by boat, but didn't think about the boat being faster. We can also rush them from Ta-tu and Kufah - I'd rush with one shield in the box, so losing 2 pop for the rushing and 2 for the settler would let us get 2 settlers out of there without them needing to walk forever.

I would be very much against making peace with Babylon. We are just going to have to tough out the war weariness from them. I was trying to go back through old turnlogs to see what we might have from the Mongols, though. We've been in their territory a lot, and we've lost some units to them, so we could be at level 1 or 2. Consider making peace here, possibly tying them into an alliance against Babylon. If Babylon takes them out, we can just retake their towns from Babylon.

Taking the city of Babylon soon would help our situation - we'll get astronomy, connecting our luxes, and the Sistine Chapel (doubling the effectiveness of our cathedrals), but getting theology (halving the effectiveness of our temples) - but I don't see how to get there very quickly. Even if we just huddled a stack of knights under our armies to walk there, bypassing everything on the way, it would take us about 10 turns to get there. Maybe this is what we should consider, though.

I mostly did not reassign workers who were already clearing wetlands, being too lazy. Sorry. And any workers that were planting forest I likewise left alone - I can't tell which tiles have been chopped already, since CAII doesn't work for me. I didn't set any workers to foresting, though (unless I accidentally hit N instead of M). I did set some to mining tundra, as we have some towns working tundra that aren't completely corrupt.

Go ahead and move towns. I don't see how moving New Murcia 2 helps - settling the hill means we can only settle one tile on the line going NE from the hill, instead of 2 - but moving Akshak NE or SW would give another site. Egypt is pretty messy, too.
 
mining tundra yields 1 shield, while foresting yields 2!
Yes, true, before Railroads -- but only in non-corrupt towns!

However, there are currently a few soon-to-be-redundant lumberjacks busy re-Foresting chopped Tundra in eastern Egypt, a long way into the 1-shield zone... ;)
I was probably the culprit of the forestry (o)ops in Egypt... Doesn't the land look better forested ;)
It does indeed, but when we can't chop a tile for shields anymore, Foresting that tile does us little good when there are other tiles still available for our Workers to plant.

Aesthetics? Pffft, who needs 'em? Function over form, every time...!
Yes, the settler in the jungle is to connect the road in southern BAM. Most of those workers were captured in the vicinity and went to road before I realized I could get a settler there. We do need settlers for BAM (and everywhere, really). They rush nicely with pop4 and 10 shields in the bin, and there are a few towns almost ready, and some walking through Sumeria - I should have sent them by boat, but didn't think about the boat being faster. We can also rush them from Ta-tu and Kufah - I'd rush with one shield in the box, so losing 2 pop for the rushing and 2 for the settler would let us get 2 settlers out of there without them needing to walk forever.
This is helpful to know, thanks.

I'll keep a lookout for other such opportunities -- because the sooner I have those Combat-Settlers, the sooner we can end the Mongol campaign with Khan's head onna stick...
I would be very much against making peace with Babylon. We are just going to have to tough out the war weariness from them. I was trying to go back through old turnlogs to see what we might have from the Mongols, though. We've been in their territory a lot, and we've lost some units to them, so we could be at level 1 or 2. Consider making peace here, possibly tying them into an alliance against Babylon. If Babylon takes them out, we can just retake their towns from Babylon.
This is a good idea too...
And any workers that were planting forest I likewise left alone - I can't tell which tiles have been chopped already, since CAII doesn't work for me.
Yeah, I did remember that, but it only occurred to me later that maybe CRpSuite(?) didn't provide this information. So no worries, eh?

(CAII is such a crutch for me, I can hardly imagine playing CivIII without it, at least not at Emperor/DG...)

Tell you what, I'll set the freed-up Workers to Forest on unchopped (Tundra) tiles, and maybe also post some CAII screenies to show where they can go later. (For example, there's actually a fair bit of our southern Tundra that can still be planted-and-chopped).
 
Yes, true, before Railroads -- but only in non-corrupt towns!

However, there are currently a few soon-to-be-redundant lumberjacks busy re-Foresting chopped Tundra in eastern Egypt, a long way into the 1-shield zone... ;)
It does indeed, but when we can't chop a tile for shields anymore, Foresting that tile does us little good when there are other tiles still available for our Workers to plant.

Aesthetics? Pffft, who needs 'em? Function over form, every time...!
This is helpful to know, thanks.

I'll keep a lookout for other such opportunities -- because the sooner I have those Combat-Settlers, the sooner we can end the Mongol campaign with Khan's head onna stick...
This is a good idea too...
Yeah, I did remember that, but it only occurred to me later that maybe CRpSuite(?) didn't provide this information. So no worries, eh?

(CAII is such a crutch for me, I can hardly imagine playing CivIII without it, at least not at Emperor/DG...)

Tell you what, I'll set the freed-up Workers to Forest on unchopped (Tundra) tiles, and maybe also post some CAII screenies to show where they can go later. (For example, there's actually a fair bit of our southern Tundra that can still be planted-and-chopped).

Yeah I cant use CivAssist either and I reforested some tiles after chopping.
 
@CKS, mining tundra yields 1 shield, while foresting yields 2!
Very true, but since I can't tell which forests have been chopped, I've gotten into the habit of mining chopped tundra so I don't end up chopping it over and over, and I didn't even think about tjs282 knowing. Please switch them to forests. I don't think any of them are very far along. Most of our tundra isn't very useful either way, though.
 
I did download CA II after it was talked about much earlier in the thread, but I have been reluctant to open the file. I understand it is a program that runs alongside the game and can tell you quite a bit of info (is it not a form of cheating / exploit?!) I've noticed some comments about knowing that various civilisations have tech knowledge that we have not yet discovered through gameplay.... If anyone can give a very brief (ie don't spend too much time on it) outline about how it works and how to get information like 'which tundra tiles have already been chopped so I don't waste time re-chopping?' then that would be helpful. Or point me towards somewhere that does explain it all in more detail. Thanks
 
I don't see how moving New Murcia 2 helps - settling the hill means we can only settle one tile on the line going NE from the hill, instead of 2
Yes, you're right that we only get 3 ICS sites either way (abandoning N.Murcia 2's position in 1150 AD, also frees the mined Grass 2SE of Sumer for settlement) — but if one of those sites is on a Hill, then we have 1 more irrigable Grass tile available for faster pop-(re)growth.

I wasn't exactly kidding about "my inner retentive"... ;) :lol:
since I can't tell which forests have been chopped, I've gotten into the habit of mining chopped tundra so I don't end up chopping it over and over
I tend to do this as well, in my solo-games, since CAII's map-screen takes sooo daaaaammmmnnn loooonnnnggg to open and update itself on my machine, especially while the game is running.

But I do also think it makes the map look really ugly — even uglier than city-pox... ;)
I did download CA II after it was talked about much earlier in the thread, but I have been reluctant to open the file. I understand it is a program that runs alongside the game and can tell you quite a bit of info (is it not a form of cheating / exploit?!)
CAII is not exploitative: it doesn't tell you much* that you can't find out in-game, but it puts it into a much more parse-able — and more to the point, comparable — format.

Take trading, for instance (which is what I mostly use it for): in-game, to find out what everyone has to sell, or wants to buy, you'd go to your Foreign Advisor (F4) screen — but you then have to visit each AI individually, note down all their goods for yourself, and then compare who has what. On a Large map, that would mean collecting that information from up to 12 11 AI-Civs (including switching 4 of the Civs you can see, to the 4 that you can't); on a Huge map, up to 16 15 Civs; and in e.g. CCM, up to 31 30 Civs! And that's before you've even started thinking about the trading! CAII collects all that info, on every turn, onto a single screen, in a spreadsheet-like format, so it becomes a lot quicker/ easier to spot e.g. '2-fers' on tech-deals — or who just hooked up a new Lux/StratRes that you need. It can also be set to alert you when any new tech or resource becomes available to buy/sell. So you don't need to waste any time talking to backward/ broke Civs who have nothing you need.

*There are two things that CAII's 'World-map' screen tells you that can't be seen in-game: (1) which tiles have already been chopped for shields, and (2) what land/air-units are loaded on AI ship-convoys. Both of these advisories are switchable though, so a player could certainly turn one or both of them off, if he/she would consider having that knowledge to be cheating.
I've noticed some comments about knowing that various civilisations have tech knowledge that we have not yet discovered through gameplay
CAII won't tell you anything about Civs you haven't contacted yet — unlike e.g. the F10 screen! — nor will it (I think) tell you how far advanced your more dangerous rivals might be: certainly the trade-screen only lists unknown techs for which you already have the prereqs (not sure about the 'Technology' screen, because I rarely use that one).
how it works and how to get information like 'which tundra tiles have already been chopped so I don't waste time re-chopping?' then that would be helpful.
Go to the World-Map screen, right click somewhere on the map itself, check the option 'Shield-Forest can be planted'. CAII will then highlight all tiles on the map (including 'natural' Forests) which have not yet been chopped. You can even choose what colour it uses to highlight, allowing you to adapt the map-view for modded/ customised terrain graphics, even extreme examples like EFZI2 (although that one doesn't actually allow chopping, AFAIK — unless the Farmers can do it...?)

Or for information on a specific tile, just left-click on it in the map-window: below the map, CAII will show all the known information regarding that tile (e.g. it will only show you where resource-tiles are located, if you already have the tech which reveals those resources).

Edits for brain-fart
 
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I did download CA II after it was talked about much earlier in the thread, but I have been reluctant to open the file. I understand it is a program that runs alongside the game and can tell you quite a bit of info (is it not a form of cheating / exploit?!) I've noticed some comments about knowing that various civilisations have tech knowledge that we have not yet discovered through gameplay....

CAII doesn't give much in the way of spoiler information, except as tjs282 noted. It does not tell you about rivals' techs that you can't see in game. It does name the land masses, so in very rare instances you might learn that there exists an additional large island (but it doesn't tell you where it is). It tells you the domination limit (only important for high-scoring histographic games) and it tells you the number of remaining beakers required for a tech (which I suppose you could keep track of yourself - just like you could keep track of tiles that you've chopped). Both HOF and GOTM consider it spoiler-free.

We don't know anything about our rivals' techs that we haven't discovered through gameplay. We know when astronomy was discovered, because we could then trade across sea tiles. We know when navigation was discovered because we could then trade maps and the AI start traveling through ocean tiles. We'll know when other techs are discovered when certain wonders are started or when we see certain units.
 
(including switching 4 of the Civs you can see, to the 4 that you can't);

I think Shift-Ctrl-D is the keyboard combination to bring up the Diplomacy menu listing all civs.

As for choppable tiles, you can already note which tiles you chop, put them all in a list, and consult the list when you're considering more tiles to chop. CA II automates this (extremely) tedious process.
 
As for choppable tiles, you can already note which tiles you chop, put them all in a list, and consult the list when you're considering more tiles to chop. CA II automates this (extremely) tedious process.
Does this imply that it is possible to find a reference number / alphanumeric for each tile?
 
Does this imply that it is possible to find a reference number / alphanumeric for each tile?
Every tile on the map has a unique co-ordinate in the Editor, yes -- although that's not much help in-game. But I also remember reading that before there was CAII, one of the hardcore HoF-Milkers (@SirPleb? @Spoonwood?) would give each of his city names a coded suffix, extending it every time an additional tile in that city's radius got chopped. Fun for some, I guess, but not me...

Update on our game:

I played about half my set yesterday (wifey was out on the town!), and Nimrud fell pretty easily, but we're being pillaged to heck by wandering Bab Pikes, so WW has jumped some more.

Just out of curiosity, I went to ask Hammy what he'd do for a PT:
StopTheWar.png

...but I would like to hold off on that a little longer, and let the next player do it. Not only should I also be able to take Damascus on this upcoming turn (and also Karakorum, with any luck: a Combat-Settler is already poised to plant, accompanied by a stack of Knights), but we still have a couple of turns to run out our MA with Abu, so I'd prefer not to break that if it can be avoided. Taking Damascus and killing more of his units should also allow us to demand more Blutgeld: that 125g is only about a quarter of his current Treasury.

Over the next couple of turns, we are going to spend another 200 gold, mainly on LUX%, but that should still leave us with about 400g(?) in the kitty (after Hammy pays us) -- and making peace with Babylon should let us drop LUX% (most of the unhappiness in most towns seems to be WW rather than whip-resentment) at least temporarily -- until he kills Khan (and hence DoWs us again).

I will finish up tomorrow evening: wifey has invited some girlfriends (but not us boyz) to a late potluck dinner, so I should be free to play instead...
 
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