Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Dec 12, 2018.
Will he give us Zamua or Yamama (both size 1 as of the end of my turns)?
I don't know, I didn't ask (sorry). TBH, I'd rather have the gold, though: we are going to need it.
Also, even if we got Yamama in a (temporary) peace deal, we can only get units to it by shipping them e.g. from Khurasan (even if he'd agree to it, signing an RoP with Hammi would be a very bad idea, I'm sure you'd agree!). So I think we'd probably be better off just capturing it during the next push — assuming it's reached Pop2 by then. After Damascus falls, the Bab borders should collapse far enough that I (or the next player) can plant a combat-Settler on the Horse-Plains 3W of Medina, before we make peace (that might also deprive the Babs of their last Horse-tile? Will have to check...). Once we have a town on that tile, Medina will be exposed to 1-turn attacks by our Knights, and taking Medina will in turn get us within striking distance of Yamama.
As for Zamua, I'd have to open the save to see where it is! But if it's offshore, do we really want it? I thought the plan was just to push Hammi off BAM-island, rather than exterminating the Babs altogether? He can go and freeze on some Tundra-trash island (like Jules), won't make any major difference to us at that point, because he won't be able to generate any significant additional Culture after we've stolen his homeland, and his Wonders.
What is our total culture value, and what is our culture-per-turn? Also what are our domination territory and population percentages?
Don't know without looking, but likely not much changed since CKS's 1150 AD save, if you want to check that out!
Pretty sure we're the Cultural leader — with the Babs running distant second since the Summies left the stage. Our Culture per turn is not huge yet: it's mostly coming from our ICS'd Temples/Caths in Egypt, but a lot of those are still being built.
We may need to ease off on the whipping for some turns, though, because whip-unhappiness is running close behind (or exceeding) WW in some towns — particularly the captures, where expensive Cols and Libs were whipped to kill off multiple foreigners in one go (not criticism: we're going to have whip-unhappiness whenever we put any given building up, so it might as well be sooner than later; at least then we have the Culture-increase as well). So although I have whipped some combat-Settlers and Temples (and 1 or 2 Caths), I have not whipped any military yet, nor do I really wish to unless absolutely necessary — because whipping units which immediately leave for bloodier pastures leaves a town with net-unhappiness (unlike whipping Happy-buildings, which counter the frowns they caused).
Capturing Sistine Chapel (doubles Cath-happies) will really help counter whip-unhappiness in the later stages, as well.
We do need cash, and we'll need lots more before we are done. However, I've not seen any discussion of whether we are going to totally eliminate the Babylonians or not. If we want to totally eliminate them, taking their little towns and abandoning them (or giving them to someone else) may be helpful. I _don't_ want to keep them. Earlier the thought had crossed my mind that eliminating the Babylonians the turn we took the great library might keep us from learning education for a while. I don't think we will be fast enough, though, since 6 AI now have theology, so I'm abandoning this thought.
I was asking because I don't have game access ATM!
I was thinking similarly about whipping. What does @CKS usually do about unhappiness at this stage of the game? Obviously on a pangaea map we wouldn't have to worry about getting luxes hooked over Sea and ocean to the same extent.
During my set I was using the "extra" citizens (those citizens that were harvesting wasted food) in most towns as tax/wo/men. Rushing in those towns not only lost us that tax income, but also lost us a citizen (sometimes more, in towns with bonus food) we could have repurposed as an entertainer. If we let those cities grow again we can start using some entertainers to counteract the WW.
Completely corrupt towns with any cultural buildings are net losses to our treasury. Maybe we could think about getting some farm areas set up where we hold off on culture, and just let them be tax farms? This could be the short-term plan for new MAB-island towns; once the expansion phase ends we won't need so much income and can then whip them. (3 citizens working irrigated grassland should supply 5 citizens with food).
At 1150 we have 25500 culture and 573 cpt.
At this point, with war weariness I just try to hang in there. Once we make peace with the Babs, our core will be happy and the corrupt towns will be in pretty good shape. Realistically, I think we have enough military to take out Babylon, even if we can't go really fast, so we can just hire entertainers in the core rather than upping the lux rate. Making a peace deal tied with an alliance against the Mongols would give us a short term break and allow us to get a big stack together under some armies that could beeline Babylon. I think this may be a helpful thing to do. We'll lose the oracle but gain Sistine chapel and trade over the ocean, which will give us some luxes to help combat our war weariness as we finish off the Babs.
Mostly we don't have a whipping issue (though there are certainly some towns with big whip unhappiness). Whipping a settler can be helpful if towns grow fast, as that removes another 2 people from the town.
Yes, exactly: So quite a lot of our ICS'd towns can be both Culture-producers and Tax-farms. Those surrounded by Grassland, and supporting 2 Taxmen, and building Wealth, will bring in 5 GPT, covering the maintenance cost of a Temple+Cath+Lib and still giving us 1 GPT (or 0 gpt if we've built a Col instead of a Lib, or -1 GPT if we build all 4 Culture-buildings).
Sure, the towns in the less fertile areas will be net drains, but conversely, towns with food-bonuses and/or freshwater will be able to run more Taxman per town (e.g. we could let freshwater towns get up to Pop7-8 by working a few more tiles, and running 3-4 Taxmen), which will help to offset the lossmakers. (Although maybe we should also institute a policy from here on, of only putting Cols in watered/ high-food towns?)
As far as our other expenses go: even if we have multiple towns over Pop6, the far more numerous Pop1-ers will ensure that we'll never need to pay anything for unit-maintenance; the Babs + Dutch + GLib will ensure that we won't need to put much if anything into SCI% after Babylon falls; and once we have Astro/Navi from the GLib, Lux-happiness should allow us to drop LUX% to zero as well (this is what is costing us at present: that and all the Clowns). We can also sell off our excess Luxes/StratRes for per-turn gold, to any remaining Civs who can afford them.
So I think we'll easily be able to manage in the long-term, it's just a little tight at present.
Spoiler Turnlog :
T 0, 1150 AD
Settler whipped in Alcorna 2
Workers interrupted bere and there
Other towns checked for starvation, overrun, etc.
Willy buys Gems (19 GPT) and then Furs (24 GPT), to make himself even prettier...
eKnight dies defending Kufah
T 1, 1160 AD
Settler whipped, Mongol Pike killed nearby
2 Pikes + 1 LBM killed in town, 2 Knights lost, 2 more LBMs killed nearby, town captured (+8g)
Bab Knight killed, Pike bombed and killed, giving us Cordoba!
Although we want Pentagon, I do not want to rush it right on the front line, nor do I want to leave the MGL unused, so...
Cordoba's Kufah Knights is formed, and loaded with 2 badly-injured vKnights (if it survives, the e*Knight will cross back over the border and join the Army next turn)
Bab Knight defeated near Damascus, promoting our vKnight (to 3/5)
Bab pillage-ing pushes WW up another notch, multiple towns riot
T 2, 1170 AD
3 pillaging Bab Pikes killed near Fustat
2 Bab + 1 Mongol Pike killed near Kufah
No other major combat this turn, just maneuvring units and shifting the injured back to heal:
Combat-Settler crosses border near Karakorum, protected by Knight-stack
Mace-Army + eKnight arrive outside Damascus
Whole buncha Knights should heal next turn
Whole bunch more shipped over to BAM from N.Pompeii, and begin the trek north
Towns building Culture checked for whip-ability
Hmm... Right now, we could make a MAPT-deal with Hammi vs. Khan, for our WMap, vs. 125 of their gold. But we still have 3T to run on our MA with Abu...
T 3, 1180 AD
vMace redlines killing a pillaging Pike
vKnight kills another Pike: "Flawless victory"
Perdición de Karakorum founded:
6 Knights move forwards: 1 vKnight retreats, 2 vPikes fall to vKnights, then 3 eKnights die failing to kill the (at least) 2 Pikes remaining. Crap
More Knights offloaded at Dalandzagad; northbound forces split roughly 2:1 between Perdicion and the Damascus combat-Settler-to-be
Mace Army + eKnight kill 2 Pikes, taking the town (+13g) -- and the Bab borders collapse past the Horses near Medina!
Nearby, it takes 3 vKnights and 1 eKnight to subdue a lousy Pike + LBM -- none lost, but all yellow/red.
Babs sign MA with the Dutch! CRAP!
On the bright side it saves us the last 160 g we owed for Willy's WMap(?); on the downside, we're now also down the 43 GPT for our Luxes
And riots break out, with the loss of Spice (there's a Dune joke in there somewhere)...
T 4, 1190 AD
Another vKnight falls, but there were only 2 (injured) Pikes left, and the town is ours (+3g, Mongol MGL also killed)
Try raising LUX% to 50%, but it won't really help
MM multiple towns, get costs down to -7 GPT
It occurs to me that I haven't seen any Bab Knights for some time, nor any Keshiks at all...
Hah! Spoke too soon, as we lose the vKnight defending Mecca -- and it riots
Kufah is finally quelled, as is Damascus, and Karakorum.
T 5, 1200 AD
2 Bab Knights killed near Mecca, but there may be more incoming
Small Knight-stack protects combat-Settler on Hill 3W of Uruk
Second stack prepares to assault Kazan (7 Knights should be enough, right...?)
Lib whipped in Karakorum, disposing of 4/5 Mongol Clowns
Temple whipped in Damascus, to pop its borders vs Fustat
Kufah has unfortunately starved too far to whip a Temple before it has 10s in the box (5 more turns)
The Mongols seem pretty much gassed: after I'd killed the Pikes that were already prowling at the beginning of my set, they never sent anything new into our territory, not even LBMs. So don't make peace, don't bring in the Babs, just finish killing them. Once Kazan falls (next turn?), they should be pretty much done.
The campaign against the Babs went reasonably well (at least, I'm pretty sure they lost more units than we did!): objectives were achieved of capturing Nimrud and Damascus, and setting up an attack on Uruk. Considering the length of the front, we still don't have an overwhelming force there, but we have 2 Armies now, lots of boats in Nuevo Pompeii to ship more Knights over as they're built, and plenty of Raxes in the captured BAM-towns to heal the injured. WW is biting, but we could make peace anytime, because our MA with Abu is finished (we still have an RoP with him though, so DoW-ing the Arabs is not yet an option).
Unfortunately, we are now at war with Willy as well (Hammi brought him in), so watch out for Dutch incursions... erm... pretty much anywhere (but most likely on Plains-Island, since it's so poorly defended, and close to Holland). Make peace ASAP, because we want him to buy our Luxes again, preferably before he buys in Ragnar as well. I started a Rax-build on Palma-Island to allow upgrades of the units we have there (just in case of invasion). There is also a Knight heading south to be shipped over to Palma (or Plains-Island; one of the Galleys from there is on its way to pick it up)
There are plenty of Settlers ready to found more towns within the next couple of turns:
-- 3 Settlers near Kua for any 3 unroaded, unoccupied Jungle-tiles in ex-Sumeria
-- 2 Settlers near Neapolis for the Hills 2NW and 2N of Neapolis, to allow irrigation through to western ex-Rome (the Worker draining the Marsh needs another 10T or so; I would have interrupted him earlier, if I'd realised that he wasn't roading)
-- Combat-Settler in place to found a base west of Uruk: the Mace-Army in Almarikh should be healed in time to cover the Knight-stack's attack
-- Combat-Settler near Ulanbataar is intended to advance our borders towards Tabriz (by founding on the Coastal Tundra north of Karakorum)
-- Combat-Settler just north of Choybalsan, can (after a few turns walking) claim the Plains-Horses near Medina
-- Multiple Egyptian Settlers heading north to finish ICS-ing northern Egypt (Marsh-tiles are all cleared) and start on southern BAM-island; there are lots of boats waiting for passengers in Punto de Pantano (Spanish for "Marsh Point" -- courtesy of GoogleTranslate!)
Our Workers are also busy:
-- Many solo-Workers are Foresting still-choppable tiles in our southern Tundra, or slow-roading the Sumerian/Arab Jungle; these should be left undisturbed
-- Several stacks are draining/chopping already-roaded Marsh/Jungle near Kish, Cumae, and Ravenna (to act as an irrigation-corridor); move them around to chop/drain other roaded tiles as they're needed
-- Stack just passing Khurasan should build roads on tiles that we're NOT going to Settle, then irrigate from Damascus back down south towards Mandalgovi and Choybalsan
Alicante 2 already had 19 shields in its box when I inherited it, so whipping out a Settler to disband it seemed pretty wasteful: it's currently running at 0 FPT to finish the Settler in another 6T (leaving the town at Pop2). If 0 FPT is maintained, a second Settler could then be whipped 10T later (disbanding at Pop1). Alternatively, the current Settler-build could be whipped to a Mace before this IBT (leaving the town at Pop3). Then start e.g. a Walls-build, wait 1T (for 1 shield in the box), and whip the Walls -> Settler to disband the town at Pop1. The new Settler should found on the Gold-Hill.
Sounds good. Too bad about the Dutch being pulled into the war, great news about the new knight army.
Heh so it's me again on pretty much the same day as last time.
I would do that. Also EMan did, but had a different numbering or lettering system. My original system got built on numbers, and I used letters later on also. The numbering system came as to use the number you use to move from the city to that tile if it had gotten chopped, was my first system. My second system had everything labeled with 8 numbers for the closest spots, then the western spots were qaz, the northern tyu, the eastern plm and the southern cvb, if I recall correctly. Then if I chopped a forest in that square, I would delete the letter or number. It the tile wasn't one that could get chopped, it would never get labeled.
I will try to get this done Tuesday . I've been busy Sunday and Monday.
Is there a shortlist you guys want to see done this turnset?
Any progress on your turns?
We've discussed seemingly all aspects of the game so far, and should be set to roll through to the finish, barring some disaster involving the Dutch, perhaps.
Currently you should focus on taking out the Mongols, ASAP. Some of the small towns in ICS-land could be switched from military to culture if you want, I think CKS mentioned we should have enough military to finish our conquests. We're at war with the Dutch, who have the great lighthouse and are building Magellan's (??), so be aware of their ships. We should have ample defenses, but if they have galleons, we might be open to some losses.
With the war ending with the Mongols, our ww will drop. I think the Dutch were also our main trading partner, a peace treaty with them should be considered.
Yeah just did it this morning.
A not very detailed turn log .
Turn 236 IBT, Dutch dropped off a med inf and crusader between Karak and Hovd.
Rome declares war on the Arabs.
Multipe cities disorder.
Kazan falls barely (last knight).
Babylon and Arabia sign peace.
Mongols and Arabia sign peace.
Dutch drop off a merc, lbm, and a knight at same spot.
Uruk falls to me.
Medina falls to me.
Samarra falls to me.
City disorders were a big problem. I just assigned specialists as needed, since raising the lux output would cost way too much from our treasury. Units ready to take another mongol city is in place. It took a bit of time to heal units after Kazan and I had to deal with boat drops. Babylon also dropped a few pikes here and there, but I dealt with them.
Looks like we are making good progress on the wars.
The Mongols should be gone soon, which may give us a little break on war weariness, but we should be done warring within 20 turns at our current rate of progress. (In fact, why don't you guys finish up the wars before it is my turn again?) We'll just have to deal with the WW until Babylon is kicked off of BAM island.
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