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jar01: spain, emporer

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I wish I did look at the city more closely, but muscle memory quickly went through it :) and it came to me afterwards. 30 turns comes to mind for some reason. That seems way too long though.
     
  2. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    After looking at the save:

    * Madrid is at 29/30 shields for Settler, with 9 coming in next turn. It also has +6 instead of +5 fpt.
    * No one else is building Settlers, and the only Worker build is in Barcelona. We need more of both of these to keep growing.
    * We only have 14 Workers for 18 cities. We should aim for around 30 Workers for a civ this size.
    * We have NO DEFENSES AT ALL in half our empire; the only military unit west of Madrid is an exploring rWarrior on Palma's island! :eek:
    * We haven't really talked about the FP. Anyone have thoughts on where to put it? Offhand, Toledo, Vitoria, or the new city on the hill near Vitoria seem like decent candidates.

    Action plan:
    * Get the 4-city plan up and running: Madrid, Barcelona, Santiago, and Valencia will all build Settlers. Anything that doesn't already have a Barracks will start peeling off Workers once its Temple is in. Jaen and Asturias in particular will be Worker pumps.
    * Move units so every city has 2-3 defenders in reach by the end of my set.
    * Move the bulk of our forces from the Sumerian border across to Egypt.
    * Maybe declare war halfway through my set. First goal will be the city in the fog E of Vitoria. I need to build tactical roads around Vitoria before attacking.
     
  3. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Right now I'm not too worried about our lack of defenses in the west. We are a long way from anyone who could attack us in the west. I don't think the Dutch are going to sail past three empty islands to attack us anytime soon, and the Hittites don't know writing yet. While I'd like to get some useful military units there sometime, it isn't that high on my list of priorities.

    For the FP, I like Toledo, except that it is building our military right now. I'll think some more on this.

    I like the action plan. I'll try to get a real look at the save today and see if I can come up with some more useful comments than "sounds good."
     
  4. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I wasnt too worried about a sailing galley. With an empty capital, they usually get drawn there anyway? I was more concerned about galley settlers (thus Cordoba), but then thought the AI arnt using ships that much yet.
     
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    The Dutch will only sell Iron to Rome if Rome has the techs/ cash/ resources to pay for it -- and a friendly/neutral Harbour to import it.

    If we were to keep Willie slightly more advanced than Julie, then Julie will not be able to offer techs for Iron, and if we pre-occupy Rome with a war, Julie will build Warriors/ Archers/ Spears/ Horses rather than buildings (i.e. no Harbour if he hasn't already got one), which will also eat his spare GPT (if any). That only leaves his trading a resource (Horses? A Lux?) for it — but either way, he still needs that Harbour. And he can't use Gil's Harbour (if any?), if we can 'persuade' Gil to go to war with him (on one side or the other; see below).

    And once we're ready to go to war with Julie ourselves, we would/should be aiming to take his resource-towns (and/or pillage his resource-tiles) ASAP, right?
    Regarding a prospective war against Egypt, I would rather that we owned (most of) our own Continent before we start trying to capture anyone else's island, especially when we have not yet got a solid hold (high pop-counts, a road-network, and/or all town-borders expanded at least once) on our end of said island.

    Also, (IIRC) Cleo is also trying to build ToA (in Thebes, IIRC), and I have no idea how far along she is relative to Gil (or Abu, come to that). But if she has a better chance of finishing ToA than Gil does (and especially considering he's just lost the GLight race), then maybe we should rather go after him first — perhaps by allying ourselves with Julie...?
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    We are doing a minimum run on currency, right? We currently have a tax man (in Jaen) and 10% science. Swap the tax man for a scientist and drop science to 0 or fire the tax man and work the coast to get extra food.

    Sumeria was not very far along on the great lighthouse, but they started the build that is currently ToA quite a while back (cascaded from the Pyramids). Egypt started ToA pretty recently - in 1075 BC, after finishing the Oracle - so I'd be surprised if Egypt beat Sumeria to the ToA. Arabia might beat out Sumeria, though, since Arabia also has been working on ToA for a long time. Ulaanbaatar recently started its build from scratch, so the Mongols are not going to get ToA.

    Rome has 2 sources of gems only a border pop away, giving them a potential trade with the Dutch as soon as they each have harbors (both can build harbors for cheap). We just need to keep an eye on things and make sure we that we go to war in time - they would have to trade through our borders (once Logrono's pop), so we can keep them from trading so long as we pay attention. (Sumeria's borders won't block a trade route, since there is a sea path around Egypt and Arabia.)
     
  7. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    OK, I need a consensus before I continue. I played two turns based on my rough outline, but my head is starting to spin. I've read plans to:

    1. Invade Rome with Galleys and Swordsmen. I can have 5 Galleys loaded up and headed to Rome by the end of my turnset.
    2. Invade Rome by signing a RoP with Sumeria. Also easily done.
    3. Invade Egypt by shipping units across the strait. We have plenty of Galleys in the area to do just that.
    4. (extrapolating from tjs' post) Delay war until our core is more fully developed, maybe until we can devote Workers to building roads in Sumeria to speed our troops.

    Could I get some votes for an actionable plan?
     
  8. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Since the weakest part of my game is deciding when to go to war, I'm not really sure I want to vote. However, I think I'll express a mild preference for invading Egypt first, so long as we can keep Rome from iron. The reason is that most of the towns for both tribes are size one, but some of Egypt's towns have popped borders, so we can keep them if we want. Also Egypt has connected its furs, while Rome has not connected its luxes. I don't feel strongly about this at all, though.

    I guess I could spin heads a little more by adding option 5: declare on Sumeria and lose to an Enkidu Warrior to start their golden age, then play defensively until ToA is built. This I don't have the guts for.
     
  9. Nathiri

    Nathiri Commander

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    I'm for 1-3 :). 4 doesnt seem the right course. 1-2 is basically the same, but boating is probably more efficient since jungle is in the north.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 1:28 AM
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    I started the min.-run because we had no Libs and our Treasury was low at the time. But if Nathiri kept it going for another 10T, it's probably not worth upping the SCI%-slider at this point.

    @Tusker:

    CKS' point about Egypt's towns being less likely to auto-raze on capture is pertinent. I was rather worried about our towns in Egypt getting auto-razed (does Cleo have WarChariots yet?), before they got big/developed enough to assist with their own defence (as opposed to relying entirely on units shipped over from our mainland). If that's (now) not a real concern, then I'd say go for it: I know you're more than competent at Deity-level warmaking, after all!

    Egypt is also much closer to our core than Rome, allowing us to send troops over there using just a few Galleys running a cross-channel ferry service (better than Seaborne Freight's -- at least we have some ships!) rather than sending multiple Galleys on a long shipping expedition up the Sumerian coast.

    Sooo... if the team is up for it, how about fighting a hot war vs. Egypt, but also making a phony DoW against Rome? When Julie sends his troops into Sumeria (the AI almost always goes overland if it can), if we can then persuade Gil to fight the Romans for us, it only takes one Enkidu (in a Jungle?) to defeat a Roman Warrior/ Archer/ Horse, which will give Gil his GA, allowing him to spam out more Enks, and hopefully also to beat Abu to the ToA (assuming that the AI doesn't usually give up on Wonder-builds unless forced to by a cascade?).

    By the time Julie and Gil are tired of fighting, we should have Cleo nearly mopped, and enough additional Swords built (or building) that we'd be able to take on Sumer (who will have most/all of their deployed troops on/near the Roman border) and then Rome...
     
  11. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    I'm saying we could drop the slider and get our minimum beakers by turning our tax man into a scientist.
    They don't have horses, just iron. Everybody nearby seems to have one or the other, but not both.
    I'm OK with this. If it looks like things are going bad for Sumeria, we can always send a few units to assist, but it looks like Rome and Sumeria are pretty evenly matched.
     
  12. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    OK, unless I get a veto in the next 8-10 hours, I'm going to:

    1. Drop the slider and turn a tax man into a scientist (can't believe I didn't notice that right away :blush: Good catch, CKS!)
    2. DoW Egypt (Cleo).
    3. Seize the first Egyptian city.
    4. DoW Rome (Julius..."Julie"?) for a phoney-war. Sign MA with Sumeria (Gil?) immediately to avoid having Rome pull them into the war against us!

    I should add: We're also at war with Babylon over a rejected tech demand (Ham wanted Polytheism). I'll sue for a straight-up peace once he's willing to talk.
     
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  13. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Sounds good.
     
  14. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I like that plan, and you're correct with which nickname belongs to whom :).

    It might be nice to pay attention to how fast ur is growing. If their citizens are working food plains and unmined grasslands (these might be mined by now) it would explain why they still have 30 turns left on the ToA, and could allow someone else to finish first.
    If Sumeria doesn't get ToA do we conquer and ICS the island that does get it?

    On the FP: I like the idea of it being in a city on Egypt island, such as vitoria.
     
  15. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    Pre-turn: Wake up all the rWarriors.
    N of Salamanca disbands in Salamanca to help the 'rax.
    4 in Toledo move to Salamanca.
    Seville and Valencia move towards Salamanca
    Zaragoza and Pamplona move towards Logrono.

    Move the Archer from Logrono to Pamplona (better located for emergency defense)
    Move the Archer from Seville to Madrid; I'm shipping him + Sword to defend Santander.

    We also need a unit to defend Palma; it's completely empty.
    Upgrade two vWarriors to Swordsmen in Toledo.

    Our holdings on Egypt-land are also lightly defended, so I'm leaving the rWarriors there until I get a few more defenders shipped over.

    Hire a taxman in Asturias to avoid a riot.

    Extensively MM cities; it looks like they were left on autopilot (sorry @Nathiri).

    IBT: Babylon warns us about our Curragh. We apologize.

    T99: Move rWarriors back south to ship them across to Egypt; they'll help rush Temples.
    Disband 2 Warriors in Logrono.
    Gather units for the crossing to Egypt-land.

    I sent a few units exploring towards Egyptian cities; one finds Horses nearby (it's in Byblos' BFC; Byblos is the city E of Vitoria, formerly in the fog)

    IBT:

    Babylon demands Polytheism. We tell Hammurabi to take a hike. He goes...to war!

    T100 (550 BC):

    Move troops. Land the Settler on the dot E of Asturias.
    Disband a Warrior in Vitoria. Temple due in 1.

    Construction is available from Arabia; Monarchy is available from Sumeria. We can't afford either right now (but Republic isn't on the table yet).

    Belatedly set science to 0 and hire a scientist in Vitoria.
    Also set the lux slider to 10% and make sure no one will riot.

    IBT: Egypt warns us about our explorer. We apologize...for now.

    T101 (530 BC):

    Teruel founded E-SE of Asturias.
    Lux slider to 20% to prevent Madrid from rioting.

    IBT: Babylon completes MoM

    T102 (510 BC):

    Almeria founded on the hill N-NE of Vitoria.

    IBT: Zzz...

    T103 (490 BC):

    Palma is cranky, so I hire a taxman. I also shift citizen assignments in Jaen and Asturias for faster growth.

    IBT: Rome and Babylon start ToA

    T104 (470 BC):

    Since Rome started ToA, it seems like a perfect time to start something.

    Sumeria won't join a MA without a bribe, but 1gpt is enough to get Gil on our side.

    Scouts have revealed about half of Egypt so far:



    I'm going to move the scouts 1-2 more turns, then declare. Fortunately, we're Strong compared to Egypt, Rome, and Sumeria.

    IBT: Zzz...

    T105 (450 BC):

    I have 9 Swords and 2 Archers on the Egyptian island, but I don't quite have the defensive roads ready, so I'm going to hold off a couple of turns before declaring.

    IBT: Rome unceremoniously kills our northern Warrior and brings a Galley within sight of Salamanca. Eep!

    T106 (430 BC):

    Egypt is in Anarchy now (learned Monarchy), so I move troops in preparation for our DoW.

    IBT: Rome doesn't land anyone.

    T107 (410 BC):

    Move troops towards Egyptian borders...Byblos will still autoraze :(

    IBT: Roman Galley retreats

    T108 (390 BC):

    Build Leon S of Murcia.

    Dial up Cleo and tell her where to go!

    I instantly capture two Workers near El-Amarna (down the coast from Asturias and Teruel)

    IBT: Roman Galley turns around; Egypt moves a bunch of troops, but there's no action.

    T109 (370 BC):

    Battle of El-Amarna:
    Sword kills Spear and promotes!
    Second Sword gets redlined -- but wins and seizes the city!

    First battle of Byblos:
    Redlined Sword kills Spear!
    Sword gets narrowly defeated by the second Spear
    Sword slices up Archers
    Holding position for now...

    IBT: We lose a Warrior near El-Amarna.

    Asturias riots :blush:

    T110 (350 BC):

    Sword gets redlined killing a Spear outside El-Amarna.





    Handoff notes:

    Micromanagement: Madrid, Barcelona, Santiago, and Valencia need to be checked on every turn. With the war, I'm building a Sword in Santiago right now. I'm thinking it can alternate between Swords and Workers to keep the population in balance until we're ready to have it spam Settlers again.

    Workers: We'll need a lot of Worker jobs in the Pamplona area to develop those cities; Workers from up near Salamanca can head that way after they're done with their current work.

    Note that Sumeria is trying to send Settler pairs down to our tundra; the Archer next to Toledo is there to discourage that.

    Military: We're Strong to basically everyone nearby (I didn't check ALL the civs, only our neighbors). That being said, we don't have a lot of units in our home territory. It's worth taking maybe every 4th Sword built to keep a presence on our home island; the rest can be shipped to Egypt.

    Egypt: El-Amarna fell easily. Byblos should, too, but I'd like to delay the attack until it grows. Once it falls, we'll have to discuss targets. El-Amarna's forces are well-positioned to attack Pi-Ramesses once healed, but Alexandria is in the stronger position. Similarly, the Byblos army can get to Avaris pretty quickly even though Asyut gets us a lot closer to Egypt's core.

    Babylon: I forgot to check on them; they're probably willing to talk.

    Rome: I haven't seen any action there, but Julie has more towns than Gil. We may want to sign a RoP and send 4-6 Swords on a raiding mission...

    Trading: Monarchy and Construction are not universally known yet, but we'll want to consider trading for them in the next set. There is a significant risk of an AI learning Currency before we do.

    Exploration: Our two remaining Curraghs are near England and Dutch islands with the intent of fog-busting in the likely spots where the Vikings are hiding. There's also a Galley near Palma that can explore W of the Hittites.

    Expansion: We should start shipping Settlers over to Palma's island soon. The Galley near Valencia can switch to that duty in a few turns; right now he's deterring Rome from sending her Galley to our capital.





     

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  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Sounds like the wars are off to a good start. I'm glad that Egypt didn't get around to hooking up horses; it is nice not to have to worry about fast movers. It is a pleasant surprise, though, that we'll have horses very soon.

    We probably don't want to make peace with Babylon, even if they will talk, so we continue to have war happiness.
     
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  17. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    Should we give Quintillus a chance to get it? He hasn't posted in his story for a few weeks now.
    I have the save though, I'll try to come up with some strategy in a post tonight.
     
  18. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    Ooh, good point about war happiness. Even if they drop some troops off, we can crush a landing easily enough. Only thing to keep in mind is not to ship *everyone* over to Egypt :king:
     
  19. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    trading:
    one ai has monarchy and 2 ai have construction. we aren't selling lit or rep, correct?

    Egypt:
    How do these routes look (approx.):
    350bc egypt plan.png

    Rome:
    defend against galleys, amass some troops for a future raid

    settlement:
    early-west to palma island
    later-east to egyptians

    I made a cheatsheet for myself:
    madrid: 4T settlers
    barcalona: currently building settler. At size 4 it will have +5fpt, +5spt better for it to build worers?
    seville: can spin off a worker every once in a while
    toledo: swordsmen
    santiago: workers/swordsmen
    salamanca: catapults
    murica: swordsmen
    valencia: 4T settlers
    zaragoza: rax then swordsmen
    pamplona: what are the plans with terraforming here? chop the grassland forest tiles? Do we want to irrigate the game down there (lots of worker-turns)?
    el-Amarna: citizen is unhappy with 1 garrison. I set him as a taxman
    vitoria: harbor then FP?
    santander: 'pults
    asturias: workers
    jaen: workers
    logrono: harbor
    valladolid: should this be set to build a temple?
    palma: temple
    cordoba: temple
    teruel: are these walls needed? could be switched to a temple?
    almeria: same as above
    leon: temple
     
  20. Elephantium

    Elephantium Peanuts for everyone!

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    Trading - correct, we'd rather not sell Lit or Rep. That changes as soon as anyone gets Currency, of course.

    I like the proposed invasion routes. We'll need to send a few Workers that way to help the road situation.

    I'd send all the settlers you produce to Palma island. I don't think we need any new cities in Egypt until we've taken Alexandria.

    Barcelona is tricky. Ignoring corruption -
    Size 4 - city center, cow, 2 grass, and 1 BG = 6 shields. Growth will go to the volcano for 9 shields. Then switch to another grassland for 7 shields, then growth gives 10 shields. Total 32. But corruption will eat 4-6 of those. It might work if we reserve the Iron tile, but that slows Swords out of Murcia.

    For sure complete the current Settler there -- then maybe switch to Workers if it can't do 4-turn Settlers without a Courthouse.

    Pamplona: Yes, chop the forests, timed to help with Swords. Then build Mines -- we'll irrigate eventually, but for now we need more production.
    Valladolid, etc: I kept Temple builds in places where I wanted the early border expansion (Palma and the tundra). Otherwise, I don't think we need Temples in every town until the war phase is over.

    The Wall builds are in case we need to fight defensively; I'd keep the build in El-Amarna, but the other cities can probably change.

    Catapults: I'd suggest peeling off Workers once Catapult cities are at size 4 or 5.
     

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