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JAR02, Always War Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Good work Tusker! :thumbsup:

    Two down, five to go! Actually, more like four-and-a-half, now... :goodjob: :)
    There's possibly a decision to be made here, depending on how long we think the game is going to run.

    Aztecs are Agri, so Desert tiles will irrigate to 2 FPT (same as Plains) and then rail to 3 FPT (if the game goes as far as Steam), which means we'd easily have enough food for some good CxxC'd Pop12-ers down there (e.g. if we wanted to go Commie later): in that case we might want to avoid ICS. OTOH, if we think that the game will be over with Cavs, then we could ICS it — but in that case there's no real point in irrigating it (since ICS'd towns won't get buildings/ go above Pop6, we might as well just leave them at Pop2: 1 labourer, 1 specialist).

    That said, (as I might have mentioned already!) I don't like ICS, and for AW-Conquest, it seems undesirable to 'waste' Settlers on more marginal territory that we don't 'need' (if not going for Domination), while at the same time also presenting the AI-Civs with a target-rich environment which we may not be able to adequately defend, because our attack-units are being walked/shipped to our ever-more-distant war-front(s) instead. So I'd rather plant any new towns near resources, or for strategic reasons (like channelling irrigation!).

    (Also, leaving 'holes' between towns may tempt the AI to drop off Settlers which we can then enslave...)
    Are you suggesting that we don't go out and meet more Civs? Kind of hard to play AW that way, no? ;)

    With the Mongols dead and the Incas on the run, we'll have our Continent under our control soon, and then we'll have to sail over quite a wide Ocean to fight the Dutch. But since we can't get any techs from the GLib unless we know at least 2 other Civs (that we haven't killed!), we should probably resign ourselves to not getting (m)any techs beyond Education anyway, shouldn't we?

    I would argue that we are going to need at least Astro (=safe Sea-travel) to make the crossing, and we're probably still going to lose a few troop-carrying Galleons to inclement weather before we get Navi (=safe Ocean-travel, Magellans) or Magnets. So we are going to need Edu sooner rather than later anyway, and should already be prepping to do our own research in preparation for the GLib's expiration.

    On which subject...
    The way I see it, we will eventually need (where they haven't already been built)

    Core-towns (<50% corrupt on building)
    Barracks + Harbour (if coastal, i.e. most of them!) + 'Duct + Lib (if high-commerce; i.e. likely most/all of the coastal towns) + Market (for Lux-happiness*, plus end-of-research-project TAX%-windfalls) + Uni (after Edu)

    Semi-core towns (50-70% corrupt)
    Courthouse + Barracks or [Harbour+Lib] + Duct + Market

    Everywhere else (>70% corrupt), maybe:
    Walls (if coastal)
    Harbour (if Fish nearby, and/or on an island with a new [Lux-]resource)

    Building units should probably still take priority though. Now that our GA is over, I wouldn't put more than 1-2 of our core-towns on infrastructure-builds during any given turn.

    *(The ToA-Temples are nice to have for the free border-pop(s), but we likely won't miss them once this Continent — and its at least 3 Luxes — is ours)
     
  2. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Re: Dutch, yeah, I was a little unwary with one of my boats. Zigged when I should have zagged :( Really, though, I should have skipped any further ocean exploration. It's probably worth keeping our Galleys in home waters from now on (at least, until a Caravel or Galleon shows up on our borders!)

    Re: research, I'm thinking about this plan:

    * Kill the Incas.
    * Build infra + Wealth to keep the army at a reasonable size.
    * Collect gold and wait until a Galleon shows up.
    * Send 6 Galleys on a suicide run to make contact with a second AI civ on the other continent.

    Assuming the Dutch don't own their continent at this point, we'll instantly learn at least 2/3 of the MA techs.

    Downside: We have a possible 50-turn wait for the AI to research and then blunder into us.

    Edit: Re: unit builds, I think a trickle of reinforcements is all we need. We already have more than enough units to kill the Incas; it's just a matter of moving them into position.
     
  3. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Warlord

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    Good news about meeting the Dutch is we might get chivalry off them and the incans before they die :)
     
  4. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I could explore to the east for an easier crossing if we don't want to wait around. I might prefer waiting around, though.
    Do we want to amass cash for a mass upgrade? Or use it for rushing buildings?
     
  5. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I doubt we'll get Chivalry before the Incas are dead. The Dutch had Engineering, but they lacked Monotheism.

    A possible Eastern crossing might help, but I wouldn't "push it" to try for landfall that way just yet.

    Actually, that's a *really big* decision for us to make: Do we follow the plan I outlined, or do we try to make contact with all the other continent's civs ASAP and crank up the science slider as soon as we learn Education?

    Waiting will give us a bigger war chest for unit upgrades and rushing a fleet of Galleons, but it might involve multiple turnsets of doing nothing but hitting 'enter' and preventing riots.
     
  6. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Warlord

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    Yeah, it's a really interesting question.

    My suggestion might be to grab chivalry when we can on our own, and then start stockpiling. That way we can cram the most amount of shields into the least amount of units support, while still benefiting from the extra gold (upgrade to cavs).

    Unless they hit industrial and get rifles, I doubt waiting could really be bad for us in any real way.
     
  7. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I don't want to just wait around. It could be a very long wait, especially if we don't have empty spaces that the AI thinks are settle-able. I'd prefer to wipe out the Inca and then go looking for someone else.
     
  8. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    The length of the wait is the big question. The waiting turnsets are boring...I'd be ok with one like that, but we risk needing to wait over 100 turns before the AI stumbles into us with Galleons. With the Incas being on the run, that will matter VERY soon.

    Jarred!, I'd suggest getting together 3-5 Galleys full of maces to land on the small Incan island to the north. If you split your troops judiciously, you might just be able to eliminate the Incas by the end of your turnset!

    As far as tempting the AI with settle-able spots, the island NE of the Incas should serve that purpose. Still, I think it'll take until Magnetism for them to take that bait.
     
  9. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Did you mean Navigation? Once the AI has Astro, it quite often goes for Navi (and starts building Magellans) immediately/ shortly afterwards; whereas Magnets normally gets discovered much later, relatively speaking (since it needs nearly all the obligatory Medieval techs). So we might not be waiting very long after they get Edu, before one (or more) of them comes calling. But how long until they get Edu itself, is the major question here.

    Before we have contact with a Civ, we don't get notifications of Wonders begun, only Wonders built. So if we hold off on contacting the rest of the overseas Civs, it will be pretty difficult to judge how far along they all are (prior to them contacting us), unless/until someone finishes e.g. SunTzu, Leos, and/or CopsObs. I do find it strange that the Dutch have only Engineering over us (presumably they also already have Feudalism?), because in 750 AD, I'd have expected diplomatically connected Emperor AIs who haven't been fighting Forever Wars, to be further along the Medieval tree than only 1 or 2 first-tier techs. So there seem to be 3 possibilities:

    (For the following, I'm assuming that's a Dutch town on the landmass over the ocean, east of former Japan[?] — and also that the Dutch are our next intended victims after the Incas are gone.)

    (1) The Dutch don't know the Byzzies, Indians and/or Ottos, so haven't been able to (tech-)trade with them.
    (2) They do know some/all of the other 3 remaining Civs, but they've been fighting with them rather than trading.
    (3) They do know some/all of the other 3 remaining Civs, but they've all gone along the lower Eng+Feud —> Gunpowder branch.

    (1) is good news in that it means that Willy is likely still relatively backward, which should make him a somewhat easier target, but being isolated would also mean that he will have a decent stockpile of previously unemployed attack-units. So any units we managed to land from our Galleys (prior to Astro) may/will face an onslaught of Archers/ Swords/ Horses/ Maces*/ LBMs (depending on his current tech-level/ resource-availability). Even on high-D terrain, our invading units may not survive long enough to take more than 1 or 2 of his towns (if we're lucky!) — because we won't be able to transport our Sword-Armies to defend them.

    (Even post-Astro, it might be best to land only Pikes — or a Pike-Army — initially, to soak up those Ancient units, and 'force' Willy to build their more expensive upgrades instead, leaving him with much fewer units for the rest of our SoD to deal with.)

    (2) would probably be the best news for us, since it might mean they were (all) relatively weakened/ backward. But if the Dutch do have an island to themselves (within Sea-crossing distance of the last major landmass), then having defeated them, we would have a safe space for our units to heal/ consolidate before we contacted the rest, and also a jumping-off point from which we could invade safely. But this situation would also not help us to clarify anything tech-wise, and we could still do with having Astro to make the initial crossing(s) safe(r) for our boats (and our landed units!).

    (3) means that — depending how far along the lower beeline they are already (which we can't know, unless we follow it ourselves) — it may be a while before any of them start along the Mono (—> Chiv) —> Astro branch. This would certainly give us plenty of time to finish off the Incas and consolidate/ build up on our continent (and colonise the adjacent islands, if worthwhile for new resources), but doesn't get us any closer to Astro either.

    The common point here is that we really need Astro to get our overseas war(s) going, but holding out on contacting the other AI-Leaders ourselves, in the hope of eventually getting free post-Edu techs from the GLib, may leave us facing (large numbers of) Muskets/ Cavs when our invasions finally start (possibly in up to 100 turns' time).

    So I agree with CKS: l think we should go ahead and contact/DoW the other Civs to take whatever techs we can get from them now. We're out of the Ancient Age, we don't need to build (m)any more units to fully occupy our continent, and we are now (almost) in a position to self-research, once Libs are up everywhere they'd be useful, so the GLib is no longer really needed. (If we're going to contact the overseas Civs, though, I'd keep SCI% at 0 and build Courts + Ducts + Markets before Libs, in our remaining [semi-]core towns).

    However, if the general consensus is to wait on contacting the others, then would it at least be worth sailing some (more) suicide-Galleys east from Kyoto/ west from Kazan, to try and find/map the Dutch eastern/southern coastline, while still avoiding the (remainder of the) landmass that must lie to their north? That would give us a better idea how big Holland is, before we invade them (though it does also run the risk of accidentally contacting ships from the other Civs).

    *(Another potential problem: If the Dutch know Feud and have Iron, then they will also have SMercs, which is going to make attacking them very costly, even if we had Knights to do it with)
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  10. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    The choice to wait or not doesn't have to be made right now. I can send some galleys to the east to try to find an easier route to the other continent(s), if I find anything interesting, I'll report back. If we get poor RNG results it might be 100 turns anyway!

    :salute:
     
  11. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    No, I meant what I said. Admittedly, it was a little sloppy; I should have said "Magnets or Nav" :)
     
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  12. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    In my experience, the AI never goes for navigation when I want them to. If I'm waiting for the AI to learn it for me, I'll be halfway through the modern age before I can trade maps.

    If we are facing swiss mercs with knights, we just need to bring plenty of artillery support.
     
  13. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Didn't quite kill off the Inca.

    Turn 190, 750 AD:
    Edo is rioting, but I can drop the lux rate to 20%
    sword army takes down incan archer
    vmace promotes after killing another incan archer

    IBT:
    some incan troop movements

    Turn 191, 760 AD:
    SoD reaches Tiwanaku, but they're on the opposite side of the river.
    A small stack and some cats are heading toward Machu Picchu
    vmace defeats vpike, no promotion. mace is 1/4, and vulnerable for attack this IBT

    IBT:
    Incan archer defeats the wounded MDI.

    Turn 192, 770 AD:
    esword defeats the archer, no leader

    Siege of Tiwanaku
    5 cats attack, scoring 4 hits, revealing 4 pikes and a vspear.
    I attack 4 times with armies, leaving an rpike exposed
    vmace takes down an incan vmace outside of the city, promoting to elite
    we have 2 more attackers, but I fortify them, since they'd be attacking across a river

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 193, 780 AD:
    Siege of Tiwanaku
    cats ping down pike to 1hp, and a sword army finishes him off
    we capture Tiwanaku, giving us the Hanging Gardens
    Tiw has 7 citizens, 5 resistors. I pile our units into the city

    Stack reaches MaPi

    With the acquisition of HG, I drop lux to 10%
    economy: 836g, +125gpt

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 194, 790 AD:
    Siege of Machu Picchu:
    cats hit 2 pikes, revealing an rpike
    sword army attacks, loses 6hp defeating rpike
    army attacks again, defeating another rpike, down to 4hp
    horses attack: 2 win, 1 loss, 1 retreat, and we take the city! (1 elite victory, no leader)
    Pop7, 5 resistors

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 195, 800 AD:
    Just troop movements. Vitcos has an rspear showing

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 196, 810 AD:
    Siege of Vilcabamba:
    Mace army attacks, killing 2 vpikes.
    Attack with the horses: 1 win, 1 retreat, 1 draw. And we capture the city (2 elite vicotry, no leader)
    city is pop 7 with 5 resistors

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 197, 820 AD:
    land 4 MDIs on Vitcos Island
    Found Tepetlaoxtoc in ex-Inca, north of the mountains

    IBT:
    Inca found arequipa on Ica Island

    Turn 198, 830 AD:
    Siege of Corihuayrachina
    army attacks, deafeating a vpike
    vmace attacks and loses to rpike, redlining it. The rpike still shows atop the city
    emace attacks and kills the rpike, and we capture the city. no leader
    Cori is size 9 with 7 resistors

    Siege of Vitcos
    easy win: 2 vmace defeat 2 vspear
    town is size 2 with 1 resistor

    IBT:
    nothing

    Turn 199, 840 AD:
    troop movements

    IBT:
    Byzantines complete Sun Tzu's

    Turn 200, 850 AD:
    Siege of Ica
    I attack with 2 MDIs, both die. Town is guarded by redlined rspear, 2/3 rspear.

    Notes:
    Resistance:
    Huamanga: 2 resistors
    Machu Picchu: 2 resistors
    Corihuayrachina: 6 resistors
    Vilcabamba: 4 resistors

    It'll probably be easier to defeat the Inca than to quell the resistance with troops, but I've only been doing the minimum.

    Vilcas:
    We could rush the disbanding settler now for like 72g. There are some workers up around Charity: Water than can assist in the irrigation of the Tepex peninsula

    Ica Island:
    I lost 2 MDI at Ica this turn, and 2 more have landed at Arequipa. There are 6 more MDI in 3 galley at the strait. These can still be moved before hitting enter.
    One of the boats with movement could drop its troops at Ica and then reload with the garrison at Vitcos to take to Arequipa next turn.
    Ica Island.png

    Galleys:
    There is a galley on the coast, and one in the ocean near teno, if we chhose to try to meet the purple people.
    There is a galley near the Northeast Island, ready to explore east.
    Another galley near Tiwanaku was also destined for the sea.

    Some builds are horsemen to get ready for an upgrade? Could get swapped to wealth or some such until we're ready for the next invasion.
     

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  14. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Looks good!
    Do we want to meet the purple people?
     
  15. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    It'll make life more interesting will it not? The sooner we know how far along the AI is, the earlier we can put a plan into action. It looks like we'll have plenty of time to prepare now that the Inca are nearly toast.
     
  16. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    2. CKS (up)
    3. tjs (on deck)
    4. judminder
    5. suede
    6. Elephantium

    I sent a galley out that way, but it doesn't have to head to the purples.
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    I've got the save.

    Before I start playing, we need to agree on a plan.
    First, how do we want to win?
    If by domination: our visible land plus the Dutch gives us enough tiles. We should fill the land near us, make contact to get what techs we can from the GL, research to navigation ASAP, and take out the Dutch or someone else
    If by conquest: I won't bother to fill in the land near us.
    If by space:): Finish off the Inca, build libraries and universities, and start researching. Ignore the other civs.
    If by 100k;): Abandon the GL and let me know when the game is over.
    I guess in the back of my head, my assumption has been that we were playing for a military victory, but I'm not sure we really decided.

    Do we make contact ASAP or wait? I count 3 votes for yes (me, Judminder, tjs282) and 3 ambiguous votes maybe leaning toward waiting. We will be learning monotheism this turn from the GL, by the way. The Dutch know invention and the Byzantines know at least Feudalism.
     
  18. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Warlord

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    I vote contact. We're gonna win either way. Might as well maximize score and make it quicker, even if it makes things "harder" in some sense.

    Domination seems easiest. But I'd be up for space race too.
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I'm fine with making contact. Do we have a decent crossing point to another continent, or does the shortest path available still require multiple ocean Galleys?
     
  20. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    Space race would be a different (and appealing) option for me, but I'm happy with whatever the team decides.
     

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