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JAR02, Always War Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Excellent point about the BGs. If our primary concern is driving as much production south as soon as possible, then have access to those ASAP is really useful. On top of the reduced corruption from being close, and having the BG worked sooner.
     
  2. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    @CKS
    Apologies if this seems pedantic, but just want to be clear - did you mean 1S1SE or 1S1SW for the blue dot? I'm presuming 1S1SW.
     
  3. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I think it was a typo, as he was referring to his own dot map!

    I like CKS' spots as well. Settle dark blue, red, seafoam green? We can control the choke against 1 civ without a town there and the green dot would be the next best site for production.
     
  4. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    It's like an ironclad Law of Succession Games: Every thread has to have at least one East-West mixup when dotmaps are being discussed :lol:

    Fortunately, it's always clear from context what people meant!
     
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  5. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Yes, I meant southwest.

    I should be able to play starting in a couple of hours. I'm assuming all are fine with iron working.
     
  6. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Well, the Japanese are close and have a lot of warriors.

    Edit: We can turn the research rate up, since our warrior died and our support costs went down.

    Turn 0, 3050 - Nothing
    Turn 1, 3000 – warrior heals, worker goes to BG
    IBT Tenochtitlan grows
    Turn 2, 2950 – warrior goes south, worker roads, lux to 10%.
    IBT Archer completes, Japanese warrior appears, Japanese town appears
    Turn 3, 2900 – Archer goes south, warrior forts, start a 2-turn warrior
    IBT J warrior advances
    Turn 4, 2850 – Archer continues south
    IBT J warrior goes north
    Turn 5, 2800 – Archer continues south, warrior is MP, southern warrior goes north.
    IBT J warrior forts
    Turn 6, 2750 – archer continues south, warrior forts
    IBT Warrior completes, start settler
    Turn 7, 2710 – archer goes SW, warrior starts south
    IBT 2nd J warrior arrives in view.
    Turn 8, 2670 – archer joins warrior on mountain, other warrior continues south
    IBT 2 more J warriors advance
    Turn 9, 2630 – Archer 3-4 kills warrior, warrior continues south
    IBT J warriors advance
    Turn 10, 2590 – Archer heals, warrior continues south
    IBT J warriors advance, another appears
    Turn 11, 2550 – Archer kills warrior, promotes to 5/5:), vet warrior dies to reg warrior which promotes:(
     

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    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  7. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Gottit.

    Right now, I'm not planning anything more complex than to put the Settler on DarkBlue, road (and mine) the BGrass to it (assuming that hasn't been done already?), build more Warriors out of Tenoch as it re-grows, and also fight any Jap units that come through the choke (not necessarily in that order).

    Will take a look at the save and post anything else that occurs to me later today, and play tomorrow.
    One piece of 'spoiler' info that CAII can provide, is to tell us what kind of (random) map we're on. Does anyone want me to check this?

    EDIT:
    I've been trying to figure out how (you intended) to do this, and this was my best effort (apologies for the cackhanded MSPain(t)-job!):
    Jar02 CKS 6 land-tiles.png
    As you can see, Orange only has 6 land-tiles in its BFC in total, but if it were to work all of them, then Green (or Purple) would be forced to go short. Even if we say buggrit, and leave Orange with only 5 tiles (the other two are closer to Tenoch, so should get their full 6 tiles), seems that Tenoch would have to work the Mountain as its 6th tile. (Not a problem per se, because at that point it will have 12FPT from the other 5 tiles and the town-tile, but if possible I generally prefer to avoid investing Worker-turns into improving Mountains in the early game).

    In its current position, LightBlue isn't going to reach Pop6 without a Harbour, though: the savegame shows that it would also have access to an offshore Fish, once it's popped its borders -- but would need some Culture (a Temple?) for that. Might be worth considering to move it 1S...?
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  8. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Well, clearly I miscounted with orange, but purple worked two wines, green took another tile from purple, Tenochtitlan stole from blue, blue stole from red, and red stole from light blue. Light blue was a sorry excuse for a town but gave us a canal and a place to attack the Japanese on the flat. I dotted it out, but it's at work, so inaccessible. I doubt if it was particularly enlightening, though.

    I did eventually plan on Tenochtitlan working the mountain, but I don't see that happening in the early game, as all the rest of the towns would have to get up to size six before that would have to happen. By then, I'm hoping we'll have expanded to some more land and one of them (at least) will be building settlers and staying a bit smaller.

    I'm a little worried that we are on a small island with Japan and that we got the good end of the island. Time will tell, I guess.
     
  9. jarred!

    jarred! Chieftain

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    I think the point was to get random geography, not mystery geography. That said, w/o CAII, we wouldn't be able to know what we got. Same for opponents, I don't mind seeing who we got, but someone might dissent to checking the space race screen.

    That doesn't change my opinion (I'm in favor) of CKS' dot map. Those towns won't get to 6 quickly with all the jungle around, and we'll want at least a couple harbors too.
     
  10. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    OK, now I've loaded up the save and looked at it in more detail, I have a problem/ question/ proposal.

    As things stand, our current Settler-build is going to massively over-run. It needs 9 shields, and we're making 6 SPT with growth to Pop4 due this IBT (so we'll harvest 7 SPT, because the Governator will likely send the next citz to the BGrass), which means that we will waste 4-5 shields finishing the Settler next turn. I can't see a decent way of MM-ing for a better result at this late stage.

    (If only more Wine-tiles had been roaded, I could have switched SPT to CPT instead...)

    And we don't have (enough) units to defend ourselves: our rAxe on the Mountain has movement available, but also only a ~50% chance of beating the Jap rAxe just to the north of him (covering the just-promoted 3/4 Axe). If we lose that fight, we will have only 2 units left to fight at least 2, possibly 3 incoming Japs -- and if the northern pair of Axes move north, our eArcher won't be able to catch up with them before they reach Tenoch in 5T (or the new town in 4T, if I let the Settler complete) -- so we will likely lose the town/game.

    So... I am very much inclined to switch the Settler-build to a vArcher, which will complete this turn, which (wastes only 2 shields, and) will give us a second backstop/interceptor vs. the northern Jap-pair. What does everyone else think about this?

    (Yes, I know we also need our next town ASAP, but we can only build/protect it, if we can keep our capital secure...)
     
  11. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    @tjs282 Do what you gotta do, but we are going to be quite far behind AI. You're right though; if we don't defend our Capital we're toast.
     
  12. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Building an archer this turn wastes 8 shields, not 2. The only way to not waste shields is to disband the warrior, in which case the settler completes this turn. However, I don't think this is a great idea. I didn't see a good option for MM and I decided to not worry about the wasted shields. I also didn't see a way to get the settler out earlier without dropping Tenochtitlan to size 1, and I thought keeping it at size 2 so it has 5 spt was more important. I thought about switching it to an archer earlier, but before our vet warrior died taking off only a single hp it didn't seem necessary.

    (If we had roaded another wine, we would be able to swap shields for commerce, but we wouldn't have a road going south for our settler.)

    If the regular warrior attacks and wounds the other warrior, I think they'll both stay put to heal. If we don't attack, they may both sit there and wait to be healed. If so, we'll be okay. If they move north and the archer follows, or if one moves north and the archer comes off the mountain to kill the wounded one, I think they'll attack the archer rather than advancing north. This should allow Tenochtitlan to spit out enough units to keep us safe.

    I'm fine with swapping to an archer if you think it is needed.
     
  13. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    I think building the settler is the right call. Japan seems to have their second city. We don't want to fall further behind. And as CKS said, switching to archer would be wasting more shields.

    If we really want to play it safe, walk the warrior back from on top of the gold mountain. Using that one, and the warrior in teno, we can cut the Japanese off from reaching our capital before our next units complete
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Spoiler Turnlog :
    T 0, 2550 BC
    Change prefs: Most animations, and "Cancel orders..." turned off
    Decide to leave rAxe fortified on Mountain for now
    (After team-consultation!) Leave Settler-build going. Should still have time to knock out another vAxe before Tenoch is threatened
    SCI% to 80% shaves off 4T from time-to-IW (now 21T)
    IBT
    Jap rAxe heads north, 3/4 Axe stays put

    T 1, 2510 BC
    eArcher kills vAxe
    Worker begins road
    LUX% to 10% to prevent a riot before Settler completion (income = -1GPT, Treasury = 9g)
    IBT
    rAxe turns around, chops down eArcher (but is redlined)
    Incoming rAxe goes round the Gold-Mountain
    Tenoch --> Archer (4T) (because it's now safe to build it)

    T 2, 2470 BC
    Settler+vWarrior to DarkBlue
    LUX% back to 0%, SCI% to 100%, IW now in 22T
    IBT
    Japs gang up again

    T 3, 2430 BC
    vAxe continues south
    Teotihuacan founded --> rWarrior (5T)
    IW now in 18T
    IBT
    Healthy rAxe moves north, 2/3 Axe stays put
    Treasury warning

    T 4, 2390 BC
    vAxe hides in the trees SSW of Teo
    Worker begins mine
    Teo's citz moved to newly roaded BGrass
    IW now in 14T (bankruptcy in 6T!)
    rAxe just manages to avenge the Archer, promoted (2/4 HP)
    IBT
    2/4 Axe dies to Jap rAxe, which promotes (3/4)

    T 5, 2350 BC
    vWarrior south
    IBT
    vWarrior fends off 3/4 Jap Axe, taking only minor damage (3/4)
    Tenoch --> Archer (4T, Pop3 in 5T)

    T 6, 2310 BC
    vAxe sets his sights on Gold-Mountain -- no new Japs visible yet
    New vArcher south to reinforce the choke
    IBT
    Zzz...

    T 7, 2270 BC
    vAxe onto Gold-Mountain. Still no Japs...
    IBT
    Teo --> Axe (5T, Pop2 in 5T)

    T 8, 2230 BC
    vAxe fortified to heal
    SCI% down to 80% (income = 0 gpt, IW now in 12T)
    IBT
    Zzz...

    T 9, 2190 BC
    First vArcher arrives on Gold-Mountain
    IBT
    Jap rArcher comes into view!
    Tenoch --> Axe (2T, Pop3 in 1T)

    T 10, 2150 BC
    vArcher sentried on Mountain, to be defended by fortified Axe
    New Archer sent south as well
    Worker sent to Grass 1S of Teo, to begin road to Red
    GAME SAVED
    Hand-off:

    I started another Axe-build in Tenoch to act as cheap MP at Pop3 (if needed, not sure). This could be switched to another Archer, but I think finishing 2 Warriors may/will waste fewer shields-per-unit, before we build our next Settler:
    Spoiler Does this work? :
    -- vWarrior:
    Turn1: 5SPT + 2FPT (--> Pop3), Governator should send new citz to mined Wines
    Turn2: 6 SPT + 2 FPT, build completes, wastes 2 shields​
    --> vWarrior:
    Turns3-4: no MM, 6SPT + 2FPT, build completes, wastes 2 shields​
    --> vArcher:
    Turn5: no MM, 6SPT + 2FPT, )
    Turns6+7: MM Wine-growing citz to Forest (less CPT in Tenoch) or mined BGrass* (= more CPT in Tenoch, less in Teo), 7SPT + 1-2FPT, build completes, wastes 0 shields​

    ...At that point, we should also have accumulated 10-12 food in the box, so...

    --> Settler:
    Turns 8-13: MM Forest-citz back to mined Wines, 6SPT + 2FPT (--> Pop4), build completes on growth, wastes growth-shields​

    *If the 3rd mined BGrass is used for the Archer-build, then 2FPT more will be collected, so growth will then happen after 4T of the Settler-build instead of 5T, wasting additional shields (OTOH, we'd also get +1CPT for those 2T of the Archer-build instead...)
    Teo's current rAxe-build (needs 5s at 3 SPT, wastes 1s) could also be switched if wished -- but I'd be inclined to finish the Axe, then start a 2nd Worker for more roading/mining.

    There will shortly be 4 units (2 vArcher, r+vAxe) on the Gold-Mountain. These could simply take swipes and pot-shots at the incoming as they bypass our hard crust in favour of our soft, chewy(-looking!) centre.

    But if the Japs are now building Archers as their primary attacker, then their unit-output should drop, and we could possibly start an invasion...
     

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    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  15. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    For happy faces:

    Pop 1: Happy by default
    Pop 2: Wines add a happy face
    Pop 3: One MP adds a content face
    Pop 4: Second MP adds a content face
    Pop 5: NOW we need to bump up the lux slider!

    I haven't looked at the save; could I twist anyone's arm into posting a screenshot? :please:
     
  16. CKS

    CKS Chieftain

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    Here you go. 2150.png
     
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  17. Judminder

    Judminder Chieftain

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    Got it.
    I'll hopefully have time to take a look tonight.
     
  18. tjs282

    tjs282 Un(a)bashed immigrant

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    Hmm...

    I vacillated initially, but eventually decided that a Warrior-build would be a better option in Tenoch. But I just noticed that it's now (still? again?) building an Archer! Looks like I absentmindedly left it on (or switched it back to) my initial choice of Archer-build? Although maybe that is the better choice, after all...

    NB @Judminder:

    Tenoch's Governator will get us to 6 SPT on growth on this IBT, so if you decide to stick with the Archer, you should MM to 7 SPT before the next IBT, to get it done in 2T more, and waste nothing (at 6SPT, the Archer-build will take another 3T after this, and waste 4 shields; or nearly half an Axe!)
     
  19. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    I think we could use some regular warriors just to fill space on those mountains down south.
     
  20. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I disagree. Merely filling space isn't the goal: killing Japan's forces and seizing her cities is. We already hold a mountain tile (good for defense), with Japan being forced to move onto the flatlands to get to our cities. That's the perfect killing ground.

    We do need to squeeze in a couple of Warriors for MP, though. A second Worker wouldn't hurt, either, but it can probably wait until we build our third city.
     

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