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JAR02, Always War Emperor

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    OK, I've had a look now and this is what I'm thinking:
    Tenochtitlan will grow IBT and with 2gold we are going to be struggling to keep them happy. I propose Teno builds a Vet Warrior and then the new warrior that Teo builds also moves North to Teno so we have 2x MP. Teo switches to rWarrior (MP) then worker, Teno switches from v Warrior -> v Archer (head South)-> v Archer (head South) -> Settler. Meanwhile the vArcher currently South of Teo heads towards the Jap borders once it joins the forces already stationed near there.If we can gradually move two stacks towards their capital and force them to have to take the lowlands to get round us we should be in good shape.
    Any objections?
     
  2. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I'll have to look at the save again before I can comment on the specifics of the plan, Judminder.

    Broadly speaking, I'm in favor of stationing a few rWarriors as MPs in our home cities. I don't have a strong opinion on building a Worker vs. the next Settler first. Probably the Settler; our cities are growth-limited, not Worker-job-limited so far.
     
  3. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    OK, so you're saying build:

    Tenoch: vWarrior (T2) -> vArcher (T5) -> vArcher (T8) -> Settler (after end of turnset)
    Teoti: rWarrior (T2) -> Worker (T7 probably) -> unit TBA (probably another rWarrior)

    Either way, you'll need to bump up the lux slider on T1, and only for 1 turn. What do you think about this instead?

    Tenoch: vArcher (T3) -> vArcher (T6) -> Settler (T11 - will need MM to avoid building early)
    Teoti: rWarrior (T2 - work unimproved BG to let Tenoch get to 7 spt) -> Worker (T6 or 7) - rWarrior (end of turnset)

    The Warrior building in Teoti immediately moves to Tenoch to provide MP, and he's effective for the remainder of the turnset.

    Third option: Build Archers in Tenoch and Warriors (for MP) in Teoti; time a Worker build for when Teoti hits size 3 and a Settler for when Tenoch hits size 5.

    Pro: Both cities will keep up more production even after the pop reduction.
    Con: We have to wait longer to get our third city.

    Thoughts?
     
  4. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    Let's not forget that MP are there to protect the city as well as keeping them happy so I'd rather have vets than regs, but we are not immediately under threat so I can live with it. Timing the worker / settler builds is a good idea. I usually make a bit of a mess of that, but I can give it a shot.
    If nobody else has any comments I'll attempt to get some game time this afternoon / evening and post later tonight / in the morning (UK times).
     
  5. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    I just prefer regs for MPs because the vets are more useful in the field. Speaking of which...we should build a rax in Teoti once we have our third city.
     
  6. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    Turn log:
    Turn 0 2150BC : No changes

    Turn 1 : 2110BC
    Warrior South to Gold Mountain (GM)
    Archer Suth
    Worker Road
    MM Lux -> 10%
    2gold, -1GPT, IW(9)

    IBT
    Jap Archer -> Desert SE of (GM)

    Turn 2 : 2070BC
    Teot : Warrior -> Warrior. New warrior heads to Teno as MP. Lux -> 0%

    vArcher beats Jap Archer and promotes 4/5
    2xGM warriors head South
    Archer heads South
    1gold, 0GPT, IW(8)

    IBT
    Barbarian warrior spotted dancing in the forest E,E,S of Teno

    Turn3: 2030BC
    Teno: Archer -> Archer MM for efficient production
    New vArcher heads South
    Archer -> GM
    Desert Archer stays put to heal
    Fortify 2 warriors on Mountain

    Teot: MM for efficient production
    1gold, +1GPT, IW(5)

    IBT
    Jap rArcher ->Mountian S of 2fortified warriors
    Barb warrior forfifies in forest

    Turn 4: 1990BC
    2 Archers join the stack of warriors
    vArcher South
    Worker Mine
    MM Teno for Archer in 2
    2gold, +1GPT, IW(6)

    IBT
    Jap Archer fortfies

    Turn 5:
    Teot Warrior -> Warrior
    Archer moves South
    Warrior heads SE of Teno towards Barbarians (we will want to send workers out that way so better to find and clear the camp)
    Fortify Archers with the warriors

    IBT
    Barbarian Warrior disappears South

    Turn 6: 1910BC
    Teno: Archer -> Archer (MM)
    New vArcher heads South
    Warrior heads South into the trees to see what he can see
    MM Teo
    4gold, -1GPT, IW(3)

    ****I should have adjusted science slider here to see if I could bag some extra cash******

    IBT
    Barb warrior re-appears in forest E,E,S of Teno
    Low treasury warning

    Turn 7: 1870BC:
    MM Tenoch and Teo so no wasted shields
    Warrior heads NE to tempt Barb warrior into attacking
    vWarrior leaves the cover of the stack to take a closer look at Japan. We see Osaka - size 1 - protected by (at least one) Spear.
    Science -> 10%

    3gold, +5GPT, IW(1)
    Jap Archer attacks and beats our curious warrior. Redlined but promotes and gets another health back. Joined by another archer.
    Didn't see where Barb warrior went, but he vanished somewhere.

    Turn 8: 1830BC
    Teo Warrior -> Warrior. We could build a worker, but will complete in 4 and Teo set to grow in 5. We opt for yet another warrior before going for the worker.
    Warrior -> E, SE of Teno
    New Teo warrior fortifies.
    Archers fortify 2 from Osaka.
    Lone archer heads South
    Science -> 80%
    9gold, 0GPT, Wheel (19)

    IBT
    Wounded Jap Archer -> Osaka
    Barb warrior appears in forest SE of our warrior

    Turn 9: 1790BC
    Can't see any Fe
    Fortify warrior adjacent to Barb warrior.
    Teno Archer -> Granary By my calculations we can have a granary and a Settler in 13turns whilst Size 5.
    Move Archer next to warrior.

    9gold, -1GPT, Wheel (9)

    IBT
    Japan offer peace in return for Pottery so while we are here I take a look at their assets: Osaka and Tokyo, 10Gold, Wheel and CB
    The war obviously continues
    Barb warrior attacks and kills our warrior but is redlined

    Turn 10: 1750 BC
    ARcher mops up barb warrior (no damage)
    Archer -> South to join stack (now 3 x vArcher, 1 x eArcher, 1 x rWarrior)

    Worker -> 1SE of Teno (plan to road, move 1SE to bonusG, then Road, mine, move 1 NW and mine)
    Saved Game
     

    Attached Files:

  7. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Is there a reason we're going for a granary in this spot? I think we could build a settler in our capital and set up for a kill on Japan.

    They look weak. The only real obstacle is that Osaka's on a hill. But I think a couple more archers should do the trick just fine, or we could bypass and head for another city.
     
  8. Judminder

    Judminder Warlord

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    The granary is optional and I'm happy for the next player to swap. I was trying to manage production wrt population and didn't want to generate the settler too early so decided to opt for a granary instead of more archers. Production could me MMd by the next player if we want to continue with a couple more archers before the settler (s)
     
  9. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Hmmm, I think you might be right about floating a high population. We'll go with an archer, and I think we can set up a timing push against the Japanese. This push would consist of 6 archers, 1 reg spear, and 1 reg warrior. I can't tell where exactly their cap is, but if my guesstimation is right we can hit in their capital in 11 turns. Osaka isn't worth hitting, it would autoraze, and we'd take higher casualties since it's on a hill.

    At this stage in the game they will have a maximum of 2 defensive units in their capital. That would be an easy kill.

    What do you guys think?
     
  10. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Looking at the save, something just occurred to me.

    Tenoch:
    Size 2: 5spt (2 BGs and the city center)
    Size 3: 7spt (3 BGs and the city center)
    Size 4: 7spt (2 BGs, mined Wines, raw BG or second mined Wines, city center)
    Size 5: 10spt (4 BGs, mined Wines, city center

    Tenoch will hit size 5 in 14 turns. That's 4 Archers in 12 plus a Settler in 16 -- or 3 Archers in 9 and a 5-turn Settler (work Wines instead of BGs to avoid massive overage) in 14.

    Or the Granary is done in 8 turns (6spt now, 7spt after growing), Archer in 11, Settler in 15.

    Thoughts on approach? I'm leaning towards the 3-Archer approach with a Granary in the next city to help pump out Settlers. Tenoch is more efficient building Archers than Settlers right now.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  11. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    @Elephantium, you're the one who'll play this out, what should I do?

    Timing push with 6 archers, 1 spear, and 1 warrior?
    Or grow and continue to skirmish with Japanese?

    We could grow behind the timing push (as in, switch to growth once we're done building the last units in the push. So it wouldn't be disastrous if it failed. I think a kill is pretty likely. But you're the one who'll have to play it out, so I'll let you make the call.
     
  12. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    An example as to why I'm so confident that his capital is poorly defended:

    From a recent game on emperor, I attacked an enemy capital at 950BC, 2 reg spears defending.
    I then attacked another enemy capital (Japan's capital) at 450 BC. 3 reg spears defending.

    Both civs had solid land.

    Our attack would be at 1400BC or so if my math is right. I think it's safe to say there'll be max 2 reg spears in there.
     
  13. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Let's go for the push :hammer:

    Japan has been pretty weak with a mere trickle of units coming at us. Once the SoD is on its way, we'll still be able to build another Archer or two as motherland defense before building our third city.

    I'd also have Teoti build a second Worker after the Spear.
     
  14. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Turn 0 = Change preferences. Set Teo to spear, Teno to Archer. Micro so Teno has archer in 2, and Teo has spear in 3.
    Turn 1 = Walk archer back to Teno
    Turn 2 = Japan walks 2 archers SE of our stack. We attack twice, and both our archers win. Our elite archer is at 3 health, vet archer at 1 health.
    Turn 3 = Send northern stack (2 archers one spear) south, heal southern units. Build worker in Teo, settler in teno.
    Turn 4 = Teno grows to 4 pop. Happiness slider to keep it happy. reg japanese warrior shows, have to move veteran archer healing on the lowground back to stack on the mountain.
    Turn 5 = worker finishes in teo. On reg warrior. Worker heads south. We're pretty broke due to unit costs, science reduced to 40%.
    Turn 6 = Japan have reg warrior and 2 reg archers showing. Our stack is in position.
    Turn 7 = They march their small stack SE of us. Crucially, I choose to ignore the stack and march south onto mountain. As a result, we're going to put our settler somewhere safer,
    the purple dot from the dot map. I know this isn't ideal, but we're eating a lot of unit costs, and I think a quick plant might
    bring other advantages. We set to warrior in Teno. We want our warriors defending under defensive bombard, so we need either
    vet warriors or reg archers for that.
    Turn 8 = Another reg archer shows out of osaska. We ignore and walk south. We set to archer in teo.
    In between turns, they attack with a reg archer out of their cap. We deal no damage, our spear dies, they promote to veteran.
    Turn 9 = Attack their recently promoted archer with our veteran archer. We survive at 2 health, and then promote to elite.
    Worker finishes road south. We move him back up for safety, working grassland SE of teo.
    Turn 10 = They don't attack us. Their capital's borders expand, we can hit next turn. We road instead of mine with our worker next to Teo, in case
    their small stack is heading for us. Science increases back to 80%, luxury down to 0% (sorry, forgot to micro this sooner).

    Comments: It looks like they've got another city to the SE, but I suspect it's a new plant. We have 6 archers in our stack, so even if they
    hit us we can still almost certainly take their cap.

    Incense next to Japanese cap. This looks like a 2 civ island. On 8 player maps, generally the number of luxuries on a continent
    corresponds with how many civs the map generator thinks should be on that continent.

    There might still be a small Japanese stack between our cities and theirs. 2 reg archers, one reg warrior.

    There's still a barb camp SE of us, I didn't clear it.

    There's a reg archer 2 tiles north of our stack next to Kyoto. It can't hit us during the interturn.
     

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  15. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Screenshot attached.

    (let me know if I messed up any etiquette stuff, this is my first SG.)

    Edit: Oops, meant to include unit health in SS.

    4 4/4 archers
    1 5/5 archer
    1 3/5 archer
    1 3/3 warrior.
     

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  16. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    I like the decision for the early KO. Japan is of no use to us alive, but them out of the game gives us more room for expansion. If we're on a 2 civ island we'll then have some time to spread out and infrastructure before we get too far behind the AI group tech pace.
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    Looking good, SuedecivIII!

    It looks like we did get the good end of the island. Let's learn alphabet next, so we can get some boats out.
     
  18. SuedecivIII

    SuedecivIII Chieftain

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    Good idea. If the kill is successful, we'll have to decide whether or not to try for Great Library. If we prebuild it should still likely be doable. Definitely very strong in an always war game, perhaps to the point of it being cheesy/cheap.
     
  19. Elephantium

    Elephantium Elephants think that people are cute, like puppies

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    Pre-turn:

    Hmm, I think Tlatelolco could have gone on the forest next to where it is to avoid crowding Tenoch quite so much. OTOH, this way it's already hooked up to the road!

    I wasn't expecting Tenoch to be size 2, but I guess building the settler early helped with unit support. I'll be building 4-turn Archers instead of 3-turn ones, but that will be OK until we have more cities and more citizens.

    Science slider to 90; Wheel due in 4.

    T1 - Kyoto falls with the loss of 1 Archer. We get 1 promotion.
    We also kill three stray Japanese Archers.

    T3 - we spot Iron W-SW of Osaka.
    Wheel > Alphabet, as discussed.
    Resistance in Kyoto finally ends.
    Horses are 1S of Tlate

    T4 - Dutch complete Colossus.

    T5 - our Warrior defends against a stray Japanese Warrior :D

    T6 - we build Texcoco in the spot 4S of Tenoch.

    T9 - I attack Tokyo...a bit too soon; it autorazes. I was thinking that the capital would prevent autorazing :blush:

    T10 - zzz...






     

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    jarred! likes this.
  20. jarred!

    jarred! Prince

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    Haven't dled the save yet. I'll probably be able to play on Monday.

    Funny about the autoraze! Sounds like something I would have done. Before we took Kyoto, Tokyo was probably working that sugar tile so it could have been close to growing. OTOH, they could have rushed away pop upon our approach (does the AI pop rush?)

    Do we know if that road tile 1S of old Tokyo leads to another town?
     

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