Discussion in 'Civ3 - Succession Games' started by jarred!, Apr 25, 2019.
Yes, the AI pop-rushes, especially when threatened.
I was under the impression that cities with culture didn't get razed.
Does that only apply when the borders have expanded?
Has to be over pop1 or have >10 culture points (first border expansion) to not autoraze.
Got the save.
Do we want to start a gran in Teno? We're pretty short on workers and the Japanese are all but destroyed.
I'll let Osaka grow before I attack. If that archer is new, they should only be able to produce one more unit before they grow. And it'll allow our troops to heal and stack up. I think we'll want to keep it for the iron nearby.
How much exploring do we want to do in the south?
I think we want to fully explore the south. I suspect we and the Japanese are the only ones on our landmass. If we run into someone else, then I change my vote.
I would vote no. Until we can get our core-towns over the Pop6 'Duct-hump, and/or we've got more commerce coming in, and/or a better government, our research is likely to remain relatively slow, and there may still be other enemies on our island(?) beyond the former Japanese holdings.
(There are certainly at least 6 other enemies out there in the fog, and we're — eventually — going to fight all of them!)
So we should be aiming to get all our (core) towns up to at least the Pop6-cap (get that Japanese Incense hooked up to our core ASAP!), and keep them there as long as we can, maximising our shield/ commerce output, and hence minimising research and build-times. But we should also be specialising town-outputs — rather than sticking multiple buildings in any town, but having that town 'use' only 1 building at a time (while paying maintenance on all of them).
With several core-towns now set up in our green-zones, we are no longer obliged to build Settlers out of Tenoch, so I think we shouldn't: it already has a Barracks, and its commerce and shields are totally uncorrupted, so I would prefer to get it as large as possible, not be regularly shrunken by spinning Settlers out of it. If it's only building mil-units (and maybe the occasional Worker every now and then if need be, to keep it from rioting/ wasting food), it doesn't need a Gran.
If we're going to put up a Gran, I'd rather put one in e.g. Teo or Tlate, which is (or will be) almost as food-rich as Tenoch, but is going to be more shield-poor -- so will need to get up to Pop4-6 as well (and clear/mine its tiles), if we want it to pump Settlers/Workers.
I'd ditch it, frankly.
Even if it could be captured without being auto-razed, it's in a pretty useless position: without a Harbour it will max. out/ oscillate at Pop2-3 (2-3 FPT from the town, 1FPT from the tiles it can reach); with a Harbour ('only' 30 shields for Militaristic Azteca!), it gets to a whopping Pop4-5. If we then also add a Temple/Lib (and a Duct!), it can just about reach Pop7 — but won't hit Pop12 without us researching (Steam and) Electricity (allowing us to rail and water the Plains + Desert). On a Standard-size map, the game might/should be over by then!
So I'd say, either raze it on capture, or capture then Worker/Settler-abandon it, refounding either on the Plains 1SW (Orange, gets access to 1 more Coast, 1 less Sea, though still needs Harbour+Temple/Lib to max at Pop8). Or better, on the Plains ENE (Purple, next to the Fish, can reach Pop12 with Harbour + Temple/Lib + Duct) — and just colonise the Iron for now.
Here's a rough screenie showing the 2 possible alternate sites, with still-Despotic FPT in the BFC-tiles (and a Harbour):
Tiles marked (1-2) only get 1 FPT before Steam/Electricity, otherwise 2 FPT if Settled (3 FPT after we're out of Despotism)...
Either until we reach the far end of the island, or until we encounter the next AI-Civ...
I don't have a strict preference on osaka, as long as we have one city getting that fish. An alternative would be plant a city 2 tiles south of texcoco, and then leave Osaka up.
Otherwise just the purple city Tj suggested and raze osaka.
But I do have an opinion on the original dot map. It was dense. Good when we were fighting an early was. But now it might be better to something a little looser. I'd suggest dropping the green circle city, the one that is 2SE1E of Teno, and planting the orange city one tile NW of the peak of the peninsula, so it gets the BG.
Teo is already about 20 shields into a gran build with a chop going in it's radius (I think it's pulling 2spt ATM). So it can become our early source of settlers. Once the worker currently mining the horse is done, I'll send him to start connecting the Incense.
TJS' plan for ex-Japan looks nice to me, so Osaka will burn regardless of when it gets captured. And I agree that we're getting tight around the capital, but the current issue is not having enough improved tiles for all of our citizens to work.
We have some towns building chariots. I'll let a few finish so we can have some fast explorers, but apart from taking on an archer/warrior on flatland, I don't like using them for much combat.
We need more Workers, but we don't have enough citizens to supply them. I'd be ok with Grans in Teoti, Texcoco, AND Tlate. Agreed on leaving Tenoch Gran-less, but I'm somewhat wary of building nonstop Archers there. We don't want to choke on unit support. It's a delicate balance for the next few turnsets.
ETA: I think I'd prefer to capture and Settler-abandon Osaka rather than raze. That gives us more unit support for the duration AND takes the population from there instead of our core.
Turn 0, 1250BC:
Allowed Units: 15
Total Units: 20
Swap Texcoco to chariot, and Tlate to archer
Japanese archer moves north towards choke
Turn 1, 1225BC:
Attack Japanese archer and lose. Japanese archer is left with 1hp.
I also shuffle some units around. We have 2 warriors and an archer at Osaka with 2 more showing up next turn.
Turn 2, 1200BC:
Turn 3, 1175BC:
We have some units on Osaka's plains tile and 3 elite archers on a mountain.
Since Osaka's on a hill, I'm waiting until we get a few more units here.
Two Japanese archers attack our units on the plains, both defeating the warriors they attack.
Turn 4, 1150BC:
We meet the Mongols!
They are up Masonry, Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, and Horseback Riding. We have 8 gold and are unable to trade.
We declare war.
Chop finishes, shields go to Teo. Worker starts road.
Other worker finishes mine on the horse and heads to texcoco
I'll have 6 archers to attack osaka next turn.
Drop sci to 60%, Alpha in 2
Raise Happy to 10%
Mongol warrior attacks and loses. He does not injure our eArcher. We were on a forest tile.
Turn 5, 1125BC:
See Elephantium's post and I don't attack. Plan is to wait until Osaka won't autoraze, cap it, then settler-disband it.
Slave south of Kyoto sees a barb.
Drop sci to 50%, Alpha in 1
2 Archers attacked out of osaka, we win 1, then lose a varcher.
We learn Alphabet! I decide Masonry at 70%, 9T, +2gpt
Turn 6, 1100BC:
Attack the Japanese varcher. we lose a vArcher, then win with an earcher. no leader.
Turn 7, 1075BC:
Worker finishes road and then mines at Teo
Barbs attack our exploring earcher, we win
Ottomans build The Oracle (we don't know them)
Turn 8, 1050BC:
Earcher moves to a hill to heal and sees a red border. Another Japanese city.
Exploring vchariot attacks a barb camp, and retreats.
Barb horse attacks exploring earcher, we win.
Turn 9, 1025BC:
We only have 3 earchers at osaka, so I don't attack yet.
Turn 10, 1000BC:
Allowed Units: 16
Total Units: 20
We lost some units, so the support is still OK. Catapults will help us not lose so many units.
5 archers could attack osaka next turn.
Some pics attached.
Well, that was interesting. We're far enough into the game that I can't guess whether the Mongol's techs suggest they have contact with another tribe. Anyone have any idea?
What about research plans? Masonry, Math, Writing, Lit? Are we going to try for the GL? If so, we'd better get a prebuild going. We may already be too late.
Tomorrow I should have time to look closely at the save.
Unless you're playing Egypt or Hittites, you don't use Chariots for combat, you stockpile them as precursors for Horseman-upgrades (at 30g per head, as opposed to Axe -> Sword, at 60g per head), once HbR comes in (thus spake @Lanzelot).
@CKS: Since the Mongols are on our Continent(?) as well, we are going to need a continuous stream of Archers (and later Horses) heading south/east. So I think HbR may be in order at this stage, and catch up in tech later, once we've eliminated the Mongols. We should also try and get a town planted on the neck of the peninsula (maybe where the redlined Chariot is in @jarred!'s 'Far East' screenie, or 1S) at some point soon: if we Wall and heavily garrison it, the Mongols will likely try to send their units past it, rather than attacking, giving us a useful killzone until we can start advancing in force with Swords/ Horses.
Great progress. That would have been some nice land to start with ;-)
I think we have to go for HBR now that we have another enemy to deal with so will that put us too far behind to go for GL? Starting the prebuild and churning out units from other cities is still a workable solution isn't it (?) Getting a city / cities planted by all of those cattle would give us some pop-rushing options.
I met the Mongol warrior, the only unit of theirs I've seen, on the game tile by the redlined chariot. The Mongols probably know the Japanese, since the Japanese have a city down there. Who knows what other techs they know post-CB/Alpha/Masonry.
Masonry will give us a prebuild for the GLib, but we're probably too late to try. I'm not fond of building 200 shield granaries
With our economy as it is, are we planning a mass chariot-horseman upgrade?
I was in a hurry on my earlier post, and didn't expand on this, but I think GLib may be a lost cause already.
We started with WarCode and Pots. For GLib we need(ed) Alph -> Writing -> [Philo] ->Lit, but instead, over the last 70-odd turns, we've gone for all warmaking techs: Bronze, IronWork, Wheel, etc. Even though the Mongols and Japs are both Mil, they started with 4 different techs between them (Rel = CBur, Exp = Pots, Mil = Wheel / WarCode), so Khan and Toku likely swapped soon after meeting, getting to parity. Mongol Scouts might also have popped 1 or 2 more 1st-tier techs from Goody-Huts, possibly including Alph and/or Masonry (but see below). And I'm assuming Alph is also (now) known to the Japs as well?
Though the AI-Civs are often slow to go from Alph to Writing (only grants 2 new Diplo-options), vs. e.g. Maths (new Wonder, new unit), they've certainly had enough time to get it by now (we'll know once we get Alph ourselves). And once one tribe has it, they often swap it fairly quickly. From Writing, MapMaking (new Wonder, new unit, new building, new Diplo-option) is often the next most popular AI-choice, but Philo (new Wonder, free tech) or Lit (new Wonder, new building) are also quite 'attractive'.
It's therefore unlikely at this stage that we'll get to Lit significantly ahead of anyone else — and with all our towns are capped at Pop6 until Construction, any one town will max at around 10 SPT, even Tenoch (which is currently also our best unit-producer!), i.e. we'll likely need >40T to the GLib. Even if we started a prebuild now, by the time we get to Lit, the late-AA Wonder-Cascades may already have cost us the race.
So switching our research-focus to go for Lit now seems kind of pointless to me: that's why I advocated just doubling-down on the war-making side, and going for HbR. We already know that we'll be able to build Maces (+Pikes) with Feud (and Knights with Chiv), so maybe we'll be able to get a bigger/more valuable tech-boost from capturing the GLib later on, than we would get by (pre)building it ourselves now...?
(After Alph is in, we can also build Curraghs to find other Civs — which will make the remaining non-optional AA-techs cheaper for us to research).
Just looked at this again, but not sure if it's correct? Because AFAIK, you can only get Wonder-notifications from Civs that you do know!
Is it possible that the Ottos are on our landmass as well? Mongols and Ottos often end up with similar colours (IIRC?), so if one of their units saw one of ours (or vice versa) over an interturn, even if Ozzie didn't contact us, that would still put them on our Foreign Advisor's radar. Ottos also start with Masonry (Ind) + Bronze (Sci) so if we are all sharing a landmass, it's also possible/likely that Khan got Masonry from Ozzie, rather than a GH.
And if Ozzie's finished building The Oracle already(?!?), less than 100T into the game, he must have been (pre)building it for a while now (so either they've also had CB and Myst for a while — or they just got Myst, and cascaded to Oracle from something else).
Or did you mean that he's just started building?
We have alphabet now, but I didn't ring our enemies back up to see how far ahead of us they are. I'd rather plan for a capture of the GLib when it will help us most, than stick-build it and risk wasting a bunch of shields. There's a curragh in process. There's a barb galley sailing around, that means MM has been teched by AI, right?
I got the pop-up that the Ottomans finished the Oracle. I was under the impression we only get pop-ups saying that a civ has started building a wonder if we know them, but get pop-ups that a wonder was completed from any civ (stopping multiple civs who don't know each other from completing the same wonder). I also didn't see the ottoman contact when I declared on the Mongols.
The Otto's are generally Gold/Orange while the Mongols are yellow/(s)lime green in the default pallet, not ruling out I missed the meeting though.
Alright, I'm good with not going for the GL. (And, as I suggested, I think we may be too late.)
Personally, I'd rather have cats first than horsemen, especially since we have iron. How about Masonry, Math, HBR? The other way around is also okay, though.
We get popups when unknown civs finish wonders, but not when they start them. We couldn't see if the Mongols knew the Ottomans when we declared, since we don't have printing press or an embassy.
I don't know if barb galleys mean someone has researched map making or if it means that at least two civs know writing (the prerequisite tech).
G Lib seems kind of cheesy if we pull it off, and a real setback if we fail. Knowing that we share a continent with The Mongols, I think we should continue to focus on military. Maybe a stack of swords/archers. I think we can roll right over the Mongols if we don't get distracted.
Sounds like a plan. Bloodbath coming up aka GOT!
I agree that Maths/Cats will be needed to help capture and defend border-towns as the length of our front expands (and/or we're invading overseas), but that's not likely to happen for a while yet.
With our (Osaka's!) Iron still unconnected — and likely to stay that way for the next 30T* unless we can get more Workers into that vicinity! — and our current front very narrow (good), already quite a long way from our core (sort of good), but still without a continous road to it (not so good), I think getting HbR/sending Horsemen to back up our Archers is a higher priority at this stage than building Cats (which will be slower to arrive at the fighting, and also need Spears/ Swords to guard them, and Swords/Archers to make the unit-kills).
Spoiler * :
With the Worker already in place 2S of Tex, there are still 4 flat tiles needing roads (3T + 3*4T = 15T), to join Tex to Kyoto, with another 4+7 = 11T to road the Hill+Plains towards the Iron, and then 10T to road the Iron (or 2T to Colonise it).
For now, I'd rather station most/all of our existing/surviving Archers at that choke east of Tokyo, to inflict attrition on the Japs and Mongols until we've worn them down/ built ourselves up to the point where we can start pushing forwards, ideally in both directions (NE and SE) along the coast. So as I see it, the main tasks for your/my sets will be:
Capture Osaka and eventually hook up its Iron (Colonise it? Can we still get a Slave out of Kyoto to do that?)
Road to/ garrison — with a view to eventually Settling — the Kyoto-choke
Once the Gran(s) is/are done, build Settlers for your OrangeDot (possibly adjusted inland a little — per @SuedecivIII's suggestion?), and my PurpleDot (Fish-Plains near Osaka)
Build Archers (to make up for inevitable losses at Osaka), plus maybe a vSpear or two (for defending our attack-units at the choke), starting/switching to Horsemen once HbR is in; build Curraghs for coastal exploration (we will need at least two, and preferably more, with Barb-boats on the water already)
OK, my mistake.
(AFAIK) if Barb-Galleys are around, that means that at least two Civs already know MapMaking — which means that at least 2 Civs know Writing as well, and further supporting the idea that (pre)building GLib ourselves is already likely a bust.
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